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book
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 761
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 Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:15 pm Post subject: A more balanced multiplayer ruleset: rewonder |
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As most good players playing on multiplayer servers have
probably realized by now, the default ruleset contains a
few imbalanced elements that only serve to increase the
advantage of one experienced (and lucky) player with no
recompense for everybody else.
A large part of these problems is due to the great wonder
exclusion rule and the default traderoute formula. In the
rewonder ruleset I try to address this without throwing
out almost all wonders (an approach I took while making the
nowonder ruleset that is used on the 2.0 warservers),
without introducing network incompatibilities between clients
and servers, and within the constraints of the 2.1 ruleset
and scripting interface.
The attached zip file contains the rewonder ruleset directory
and a server script with some recommended multiplayer settings.
Extract it in the data subdirectory of the freeciv 2.1 build
tree, or in the ruleset search path of the installed server.
The rest of this post will be a detailed summary of differences
between rewonder and the default 2.1 freeciv ruleset. The
executive summary is:
Wonders can be built by multiple players.
Traderoutes are removed from the game.
Wonder Changes
Almost all great wonders have been changed into small wonders.
That means that each player may build their own "Oracle" for
example, or even move such small wonders around by rebuilding
them in other cities. All wonder effects that were player-global
have been changed to affect only cities on the same continent
as the city with the small wonder.
Furthermore some wonder effects were adjusted or completely
changed (all of the following are small wonders):
- Apollo Program: Does not reveal the map.
- A.Smith's Trading Co.: Costs 300 (was 400).
- Darwin's Voyage: Costs 400 (was 300).
- Eiffel Tower: You get one unit free of shield upkeep
per city, instead of "AI love".
- Great Library: Reduces city corruption by 50%,
instead of the tech-parasite effect. Costs 200 (was 300)
and never obsoletes (used to be "Electricity").
- Hanging Gardens: Just makes two citizens happy in
each city. Costs 150 (was 200).
- Isaac Newton's College: Costs 400 (was 300).
- J.S. Bach's Cathedral: Costs 300 (was 400).
- Leonardo's Workshop: Costs 300 (was 400). Upgrades
two units (was one).
- Magellan's Expedition: Instead of the +2 move
rate, it just makes your new sea units veteran.
- Marco Polo's Embassy: Costs 400 (was 200). Instead
of giving embassies, it increases trade output by 40%.
- Michelangelo's Chapel: Costs 300 (was 400).
- Pyramids: Instead of giving the granary effect,
it allows the city where it is built to rapture grow.
- Seti Program: Renamed to "The Internet".
- Women's Suffrage: Costs 300 (was 600). Affects
2 and 4 citizens under republic and democracy respectively
(was 1 and 2).
Since caravans cannot be used to make traderoutes (see
below in the unit section), I have instead made the Marco
Polo wonder give a crudely similar effect to having full
traderoutes. It is not that I do not like organizing
traderoutes and micromanaging caravans to get the full 4
routes in each city as fast as possible, it is just that the
default traderoute bonus formula is very easy to abuse and
cannot be changed without breaking client compatibilty.
The effect of Darwin's Voyage is implemented via a lua
script. This is so that players cannot keep getting two
free techs everytime they rebuild it. Also, a "dummy"
self-rootreq tech, "Theory of Evolution", is used to mark
players which have gotten their two free darwin techs
already (so that it is saved over a game reload).
As for the remaining great wonders:
- Cure for Cancer: Costs 400 (was 600), and makes two
citizens happy in every city owned by any player who
knows "Genetic Engineering".
- Lighthouse: Eliminates trireme loss for all players,
and that's it (no veterancy or move bonus).
- United Nations: Gives the senate and revolt-when-angry
effect to all nations, instead of unit healing. This
one might be stupid gameplay-wise, but I could not think
of anything better or possible given the constraints of
the ruleset/scripting interface.
Building Changes
Mostly to boost the utility of otherwise unused improvements:
- Police station: Affects 2 and 4 unhappy citizens under
republic and democracy respectively (was 1 and 2).
- Supermarket: Increases farmland tile food output by 100%
(was 50%).
- Colosseum: Renamed to "Amphitheatre" as suggested by
mrstarware, and cost decreased to 60 (was 70).
Government Changes
Fundamentalism is back, and should be just as in civ2 and the
warserver rulesets.
Technology Changes
- Philosophy gives a free tech even if another player already
researched it first (implemented via lua script).
- Enviromentalism is back and decreases your pollution by 50%
once you research it.
- Fundamentalism is back. Its requisites are Theology and
Conscription.
- Theory of Evolution. A dummy marker tech used to correctly
implement a darwin-like small wonder effect.
Unit Changes
The main change is with regards to Caravans. Since the default
traderoute formula is broken (i.e. "infinite sci/gold exploit"),
and cannot be changed without breaking network compatibility
(along with CMA and other things), traderoutes are removed
from the game (no units can make them).
- Caravans cost 30 (i.e. they give 30 shields when added to a
wonder).
- Fanatics 4/4/1 cost 20 are available under Fundamentalism.
- Elephants 4/1/2 cost 40 available with Polytheism.
- Crusaders 5/1/2 cost 40 available with Monotheism.
Gamerule Changes
The city incite cost is made 1000 times more expensive, so as to
discourage city bribing. The default rules with regards to inciting
revolts are not good for gameplay (according to warserver
experience) and as far as I know nobody has been able to think
of a better way of handling this (I'm open to suggestions).
Finally, the numeric team names are replaced by color names
(this will have to do until the warserver team names feature is
ported  ).
| Description: |
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Download |
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rewonder.zip |
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Gorillaz
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 215
Location: Behind you >=)
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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OMG.
* Are the small wonders available for everyone I mean, Can 2 civs build the same Wonder?
* Did you add elephants and fanatics to Civ 1? 
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book
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 761
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Gorillaz wrote: | | * Are the small wonders available for everyone I mean, Can 2 civs build the same Wonder? |
Yes, though it would be more accurate to say that most great
wonders were converted into small wonders with similar effects.
Basically each nation can have its own isaac, statue, etc.
The few great wonders that remain have world effects, that is
they affect all players.
| Quote: | | * Did you add elephants and fanatics to Civ 1? |
No, this ruleset has nothing to do with the civ1 ruleset. It is a
complete ruleset by itself.
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Yautja
Art Developer
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 153
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: A more balanced multiplayer ruleset: rewonder |
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| book wrote: |
[*]Great Library: Reduces city corruption by 50%,
instead of the tech-parasite effect. Costs 200 (was 300)
and never obsoletes (used to be "Electricity").
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Could at least make it a free library in the city it's built
| book wrote: |
The city incite cost is made 1000 times more expensive, so as to
discourage city bribing. The default rules with regards to inciting
revolts are not good for gameplay (according to warserver
experience) and as far as I know nobody has been able to think
of a better way of handling this (I'm open to suggestions).
|
Every city needs to have loyalties to various nations (plus disloyalty - for independence from your tyranny). If one of your city's loyalties gets over it's loyalty to your nation it revolts, to the next highest nation, or to an independent state if disloyalty is the highest loyalty it now has.
Then have loyalties effected by unhappiness in the city, diplomats, proximity to borders, distance from capital, wonders, buildings, number of units in city etc.
So if you take over a city you have to keep a few units in it for a couple of turns or it'll revert back to it's original owner.
If a city converts to another owner, either divide all the units between the old/new owners and make them flee, or more interestingly damage every unit to 30% health and make new identical 30% health units outside the city fleeing. (40% lost during the anarchy fighting). Could also throw in some refugees for good measure, can't build cities, adds to city population, costs food, loses health every turn like a helicopter.
Perhaps even extend loyalty to units for bribe cost, desertion etc.
Some other suggestions:
Reduce the defense of terrain a bit, and city walls. Too hard to attack with land units IMO, bad enough they have ZOC and terrain movement penalties.
Other wise it just ends up a stale mate. Something like 2.2 for mountains, 1.8 for hills, 1.4 for forest / swamp. 1.4x for rivers. Only +100-150% for walls.
Bit ridiculous currently with Mountains + River + Walls = 3 X 1.5 X 3 = 13.5 times defense modifier.
Perhaps instead of bombardment, or in addition, have an attack option where the units only attacks to 1/3 of it's health is gone (and uses 1/3 a MP). So you can take cities without losing 1/2 your units (you'd have to wait for them to heal before you can move to the next one). Be the equivalent of a simultaneous group attack, instead of 1 unit at a time, throwing themselves at the walls.
Make it cost money to heal units if you have gold upkeep for them to make war more costly.
And possibly have conscripted defenders. Basic defensive units at 1/2 of the current defense value of your best defenders, and cost the city 1 unit of population if they're destroyed. Perhaps based on loyalty how many you can recruit or are generated in the city.
Tech leakage - really needed for new players.
The current methods available to rulesets are too powerful, basically if 7/8 players have the tech it costs you 1/8 the cost. Something like (1X2)/8 the cost would be a quick fix, never get more than 50% reduction.
The game really needs to have individual research bars for techs and record the turn a player got each tech. But that would require modifying the savegame format  .
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book
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 761
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: A more balanced multiplayer ruleset: rewonder |
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| Yautja wrote: | | book wrote: |
[*]Great Library: Reduces city corruption by 50%,
instead of the tech-parasite effect. Costs 200 (was 300)
and never obsoletes (used to be "Electricity").
|
Could at least make it a free library in the city it's built |
I avoided any kind of direct science bonus because there
already are a lot of wonders (and one special tech) that give
science (philo, marco, isaac, darwin, internet). Maybe it would
be good though, so that there would be an equivalent to the
early science income from establishing traderoutes. I'll play
test some variants.
| Quote: | | book wrote: | The city incite cost is made 1000 times more expensive, so as to
discourage city bribing. The default rules with regards to inciting
revolts are not good for gameplay (according to warserver
experience) and as far as I know nobody has been able to think
of a better way of handling this (I'm open to suggestions).
|
Every city needs to have loyalties to various nations (plus disloyalty - for independence from your tyranny). If one of your city's loyalties gets over it's loyalty to your nation it revolts, to the next highest nation, or to an independent state if disloyalty is the highest loyalty it now has.
Then have loyalties effected by unhappiness in the city, diplomats, proximity to borders, distance from capital, wonders, buildings, number of units in city etc.
So if you take over a city you have to keep a few units in it for a couple of turns or it'll revert back to it's original owner.
If a city converts to another owner, either divide all the units between the old/new owners and make them flee, or more interestingly damage every unit to 30% health and make new identical 30% health units outside the city fleeing. (40% lost during the anarchy fighting). Could also throw in some refugees for good measure, can't build cities, adds to city population, costs food, loses health every turn like a helicopter.
Perhaps even extend loyalty to units for bribe cost, desertion etc. |
A good idea, but I meant some way of fixing the incite cost
without making the server incompatible with old clients (i.e.
within the capabilities of the ruleset, or at worst, changing
the server internals only).
Your suggestion would require a lot of server side changes
and some client interface additions before it would be usable.
It would also makes the game more complex. I do like the idea
though and will keep it in mind for 2.2 or later.
| Quote: | Reduce the defense of terrain a bit, and city walls. Too hard to attack with land units IMO, bad enough they have ZOC and terrain movement penalties.
Other wise it just ends up a stale mate. Something like 2.2 for mountains, 1.8 for hills, 1.4 for forest / swamp. 1.4x for rivers. Only +100-150% for walls.
Bit ridiculous currently with Mountains + River + Walls = 3 X 1.5 X 3 = 13.5 times defense modifier. |
There are nukes and howitzers for such situations if you really
must kill the city, but almost always you should just find an easier
target. In my opinion this is more of a game strategy issue;
instead of wasting resources on attacking a superfortress you
should invest those resources into development (get better
infrastructure and technology), and attacking where you will
get the most strategic gain (in terms of position and spoils).
| Quote: | Perhaps instead of bombardment, or in addition, have an attack option where the units only attacks to 1/3 of it's health is gone (and uses 1/3 a MP). So you can take cities without losing 1/2 your units (you'd have to wait for them to heal before you can move to the next one). Be the equivalent of a simultaneous group attack, instead of 1 unit at a time, throwing themselves at the walls.
Make it cost money to heal units if you have gold upkeep for them to make war more costly. |
Units could have a "disengage" ability that would make them
move away from an attack or defense if their hp gets too low.
But as with the "city loyalty" feature this would require more
code in the server and client.
| Quote: | | And possibly have conscripted defenders. Basic defensive units at 1/2 of the current defense value of your best defenders, and cost the city 1 unit of population if they're destroyed. Perhaps based on loyalty how many you can recruit or are generated in the city. |
Basically something like the payciv "conscription" feature. Sure
it could be done for 2.2, but it is impossible via the 2.1 ruleset/
scripting engine (not to mention the client interface does not
support it).
| Quote: | | Tech leakage - really needed for new players. |
I don't agree that weak players should have special rules
added for their benefit, at least not for multiplayer freeciv
for which the rewonder ruleset is designed. New players
should find opponents near their own skill level if they are
just trying for a quick fun game, or they should try to get
better by reading guides, observing games, and losing to
stronger players if that is their goal.
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Yautja
Art Developer
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 153
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:20 am Post subject: Re: A more balanced multiplayer ruleset: rewonder |
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| book wrote: |
I avoided any kind of direct science bonus because there
already are a lot of wonders (and one special tech) that give
science (philo, marco, isaac, darwin, internet). Maybe it would
be good though, so that there would be an equivalent to the
early science income from establishing traderoutes. I'll play
test some variants.
|
I meant to replace the library in the city so you can sell it, it is a Great Library after all.
| Quote: |
I don't agree that weak players should have special rules
added for their benefit, at least not for multiplayer freeciv
for which the rewonder ruleset is designed. New players
should find opponents near their own skill level if they are
just trying for a quick fun game, or they should try to get
better by reading guides, observing games, and losing to
stronger players if that is their goal. |
I just think it's a good idea for new players, people who get bad starting position, attacked early and are victorious. Guess the bad side is it'll balance out the game to much and they'll last forever.
Originally my off topic rant was 2x as long, documenting how the server would record the turns in which players gained techs, then start leaking them to other players after a specific number of turns. Getting tech discounts for killing/capturing/fighting units you have not researched yet. But all that will require modifying the savegame format, best to wait for version 3.0 ?
Anyway, thanks for making this, would of made something similar a few years back myself if I could get a server to work over the internet .
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Gorillaz
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 215
Location: Behind you >=)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| We can't make traderoutes º_º
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Munk
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 137
Location: The Universe
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:02 am Post subject: |
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This sounds like a really good change, and addresses imbalance issues that I've brought up before in other threads - Thanks! (:
I'll be using this ruleset for our next LongTurn game, and I'll let you know how it works out balance-wise.
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book
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 761
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:59 am Post subject: Re: A more balanced multiplayer ruleset: rewonder |
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| Yautja wrote: | | ... people who get bad starting position ... |
I will port pepeto's fair island generator very soon (maybe today).
That way most of the imbalance due to poor start position can
be alleviated (there would still be the issue of which neighbors,
though in ffa this is overshadowed by the 2v1 problem...).
| Quote: | | Originally my off topic rant was 2x as long, documenting how the server would record the turns in which players gained techs, then start leaking them to other players after a specific number of turns. Getting tech discounts for killing/capturing/fighting units you have not researched yet. But all that will require modifying the savegame format, best to wait for version 3.0 ? |
It seems like a pretty complicated game rule change, so I'm not
sure if it is a good idea. The game should not get so complex that
even experienced players cannot predict the outcome of their
actions.
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book
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 761
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Munk wrote: | | I'll be using this ruleset for our next LongTurn game, and I'll let you know how it works out balance-wise. |
Great, be on the lookout for ruleset bugs too. I did run through
a few test games but I might have made some mistakes in the
effect/building/gov/tech definitions or whatnot. Report any oddities
in this thread and I'll post an updated fixed version.
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book
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 761
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| Gorillaz wrote: | | We can't make traderoutes º_º |
Yes this is unfortunate, in that the way the client and server are
designed the traderoute formula cannot be changed without
breaking a lot of things. I will make 2.2 more flexible so different,
balanced traderoute systems can again be implemented in the
ruleset.
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Lachu
Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 12:24 am Post subject: |
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Today I was started discussion about possibly changes into gameplay. May idea is to add more event/effects activate wonders. Many players can build it, but it works only for one players.
We should add BestOf requirements, to decide witch player with wonder should take effect.
http://freeciv.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Lachu
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Gorillaz
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 215
Location: Behind you >=)
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: |
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add the warclient map generator to the freeciv, or something similar, the "lucky" thing is for example when someone get a tile with wine or gold or both, near of capitol, and other don't. If you make the map geenrator generates the same number of especials in all islands you will make the game better, and more fair.
Note: I don't like the queal island geenrator, I preffer similar islands.
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book
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 761
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Gorillaz wrote: | add the warclient map generator to the freeciv, or something similar, the "lucky" thing is for example when someone get a tile with wine or gold or both, near of capitol, and other don't. If you make the map geenrator generates the same number of especials in all islands you will make the game better, and more fair.
Note: I don't like the queal island geenrator, I preffer similar islands. |
If the islands are not the same you just push the luck
back to whatever is different for "similar islands", e.g.
for some guys their best tiles are 1-2 tiles from the
start pos and for others more.
The warclient island generator will be in 2.1.10 as I am
currently working on porting it. Later I will make map
generation scriptable so that people can more easily
experiment with and add their own custom map
generators.
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Munk
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 137
Location: The Universe
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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ReWonder ruleset appears to not allow players to turn on national borders view. it's grayed out and checked, but no borders are visible to players.
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