Civ2 Ruleset - Scramble Rule

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NotAnyoneSpecial
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Civ2 Ruleset - Scramble Rule

Postby NotAnyoneSpecial » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:00 am

I wonder if the Civ2 ruleset does include the "Scramble Bonus" applied to fighters, specifically when a city with fighter aircraft is attacked by air units - the fighters immediately receive a defensive bonus 4x against enemy bombers and fighters.

If no such bonus exists then this most definitely a bug, as i cannot see anywhere in the help description of such a feature.

cazfi
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Re: Civ2 Ruleset - Scramble Rule

Postby cazfi » Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:29 pm

There's no such feature in freeciv, and I've never heard of it before in civ2 (I'm not civ2 expert in any way, just telling that nobody before you has told me about it).

Yes, if civ2 had it, then it would be incompatibility in our civ2 ruleset.

NotAnyoneSpecial
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Re: Civ2 Ruleset - Scramble Rule

Postby NotAnyoneSpecial » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:06 pm

I was reading the manual for civ2 when it mentioned the scramble bonus fighter aircraft received to defend their airspace from enemy bombers and fighters, I myself wondered why fighter aircraft received defense at all until I looked into it. Although the manual only explicitly mentioned a 4x bonus to fighter defense against enemy bombers (? maybe, all aircraft such as fighters).

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ2/strateg ... entfactors

cazfi
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Re: Civ2 Ruleset - Scramble Rule

Postby cazfi » Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:23 pm

That list of modificator factors seems to have several things not implemented in freeciv. I don't think things improve a lot in 2.5 any more as datafile format has frozen. Could make it so that civ2 ruleset Fighters and Stealth Fighters would always have 4x defense bonus against other aircraft (or just bombers?). That's possible with the combat bonus system in 2.5. It would not be possible to limit this just to situations where it's defending a city, but as they don't have fuel to stay in air over turn change, they rarely defend in other tiles anyway.

NotAnyoneSpecial
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Re: Civ2 Ruleset - Scramble Rule

Postby NotAnyoneSpecial » Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:25 pm

Although I did also think of ways to resolve this in the ruleset, I wonder is it possible in the ruleset to modify the defense bonus units get while inside cities? As I think its one of the hardcoded bonuses that still exists, that or the river bonus.

Because if unit defense inside cities could be defined in rulesets, it would seem that simply providing the standard +50% to ground units and +300% to fighters would be a relatively simple fix.

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GriffonSpade
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Re: Civ2 Ruleset - Scramble Rule

Postby GriffonSpade » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:57 am

Well, bombers can only attack fighters when they're on a city right? It would make sense to give them a defense multiplier.
Although, I don't see a normal Fighter getting a defense bonus versus a Stealth Bomber.
Perhaps the defense bonus was only versus regular Bomber units, and not Stealth Bomber units?

Would the bonus against bombers be +300%(4x) or +250%(3.5x), and another 50%(4.5x or 4x) while in city? (I forget if air units receive such a bonus from being in city)

NotAnyoneSpecial
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Re: Civ2 Ruleset - Scramble Rule

Postby NotAnyoneSpecial » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:14 pm

The more I look into combat values the more I realise freeciv might have deeply got one fundamental part of civ2 combat wrong, according to what I've read city walls supercede the city bonus. Basically if a unit is benefiting from city walls giving it 3x bonus to defense, it absolutely should not be benefiting from 1.5x bonus for being in a city - and only should recieve that city wall bonus. Which does make more sense from a mechanics point of view for game play.

I wonder whether freeciv 2.6 will allow rulesets to modify city tile bonuses?

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GriffonSpade
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Re: Civ2 Ruleset - Scramble Rule

Postby GriffonSpade » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:34 pm

NotAnyoneSpecial wrote:The more I look into combat values the more I realise freeciv might have deeply got one fundamental part of civ2 combat wrong, according to what I've read city walls supercede the city bonus. Basically if a unit is benefiting from city walls giving it 3x bonus to defense, it absolutely should not be benefiting from 1.5x bonus for being in a city - and only should recieve that city wall bonus. Which does make more sense from a mechanics point of view for game play.

I wonder whether freeciv 2.6 will allow rulesets to modify city tile bonuses?


Hmm, wouldn't lowering city walls to 100% defense bonus achieve the same? (1.5*2=3)

NotAnyoneSpecial
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Re: Civ2 Ruleset - Scramble Rule

Postby NotAnyoneSpecial » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:42 am

Civ2 is quite ambiguous but what I've read seems to indicate that applying the city wall bonus with a fortification/inside city bonus is entirely inappropriate. Civ 2 will only award a bonus to defense, if the unit is actually fortified in the city as opposed to just automatically receiving it upon entering the square - a phalanx rushing into a city to defend it against an enemy legion would be essentially fighting as it was on open ground (unless the city had walls).

The city wall and fortification bonus are not used together, one super-cede the other for land attacks - and it would imply that is the city wall is not effective such as the walls are ignored the bonus falls back to the simple fortified bonus. Similarly a unit fortified in a fortress, would gain no advantage as it already has the fortress bonus of 2x to defense.

Going through the source it does seem to be hardcoded, as the city defense bonus is the fortification bonus automatically applied for being on the city tile - this affects not only city walls but also air/naval. As ground units should not be getting 1.5x fortification and 2x coastal defense/sam site to defend against naval/air attacks - they either automatically receive the coastal defense/sam bonus (much like how the city bonus is awarded by simply being in the city) or the fortification bonus for being fortified (which happens to be on a city square). A hacky way to fix this is as suggested, reduce city walls to 2x and sam/coastal defense to 1.33x - but hopefully there will be a server option eventually available to not automatically award a fortification bonus for simply being on the city square.

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Re: Civ2 Ruleset - Scramble Rule

Postby Ignatus » Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:32 pm

Opened a feature request of city combat bonus: http://www.hostedredmine.com/issues/865084 (DefenseMultiplier may do it for bombers per GriffonSpade but not other fighters).