"Simulation" ruleset, v2.x - WORK IN PROGRESS

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Corbeau
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Re: "Simulation" ruleset, v2.x - WORK IN PROGRESS

Postby Corbeau » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:13 pm

Some brainstorming from Discord I don't want to lose:

a factory would give you a penalty to the food production maybe?

if there would be a tv wonder, that might hurt libraries

industrial cities might take a hit on the happiness and that could be dealt with maybe by adding some happy wonders there. but the happy wonders would hurt sciences... etc..
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Re: "Simulation" ruleset, v2.x - WORK IN PROGRESS

Postby Corbeau » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:42 pm

Last changes:

No units with "Killcitizen" flag: population is not decreased when city is attacked

Caravans and Freights no longer capturable

Max_Trade_Routes = 0 (no trade routes, but one-time bonus COULD be possible, needs to be tested)

specialists have no effect in Anarchy

Bombers losing 20% HP per turn when outside

removed Shakespeare's Theatre
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Re: "Simulation" ruleset, v2.x - WORK IN PROGRESS

Postby Corbeau » Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:09 pm

As always, there is a number of "little things" that need to be fixed and, with this many changes, there is carnage among the help files. Please report all misunderstandings, errors, undocumented changes and everything else that should be fixed here.
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Re: "Simulation" ruleset, v2.x - WORK IN PROGRESS

Postby Corbeau » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:51 pm

Wahazar wrote:Some my toughs after playing LT48:
I noticed flaw related to the following topics: 1. CityBuster flag, 2. city defense bonus, 3. unique migrants, 4.science/town cost instead unhapiness step
These topics all goes together, even if it seems that they are unrelated
Why migrants are unique? Because you can add them without limit, and you need to add them to handle science costs (make big towns from small ones)
And because city defense grow with city size, instead of standard 8 size step
Standard freeciv city have 50% defense bonus (hardcoded) + 50 or 100% from ruleset. In such case, CityBuster flag nullify this 100%
In case of LT48, fortified unit on the field is more durable than same unit in city below 5
And fortified unit in Fort is superior than this in any city
In conclusion, some factors need to be refactored.
Either Citybusterflag, or all this linear defense+unique migrants+mindist=0+no unhappy step+town count tech costs
In my opinion, I would throw away this second part
Converting from swarm of cities to large cities is very tedious. And there is lack of tools to maintain dense array of cities, for example it is hard to guess, which tile belongs to which city


Let's check point by point.

I noticed flaw related to the following topics: 1. CityBuster flag, 2. city defense bonus, 3. unique migrants, 4.science/town cost instead unhapiness step
These topics all goes together, even if it seems that they are unrelated
Why migrants are unique? Because you can add them without limit, and you need to add them to handle science costs (make big towns from small ones)

Why? In oredr to prevent stockpiling them outside and then building a city from nothing to size 20 in one turn which makes no sense whatsoever from realistic point of view. However, I'm reconsidering this and try instead having Migrants create 3 or more unhappy citizens. Then stockpiling them would be much more difficult. Comments are welcome.

However, even with unique migrants, if you want to disband a city in a hurry, you can always use Settlers. Yes, you don't get the population point back, but that's an acceptable penalty if the point was to get rid of a city.

And because city defense grow with city size, instead of standard 8 size step
Standard freeciv city have 50% defense bonus (hardcoded)

What do you mean? 50% defense bonus isn't hardcoded. The only thing hardcoded (I think) is the feature that a unit in a city is automatically fortified.

+ 50 or 100% from ruleset. In such case, CityBuster flag nullify this 100%
In case of LT48, fortified unit on the field is more durable than same unit in city below 5
And fortified unit in Fort is superior than this in any city
In conclusion, some factors need to be refactored.

Point taken. Will consider. Although, units in a fort should be superior in defense to those in cities because forts are made for defense, cities aren't.

Either Citybusterflag, or all this linear defense+unique migrants+mindist=0+no unhappy step+town count tech costs
In my opinion, I would throw away this second part

Actually, a lot of the second part is a part of the main point of the Sim Ruleset, especially tech upkeep based on number of cities, at least until there is a fix that allows tech upkeep based (also) on population.


Converting from swarm of cities to large cities is very tedious.


Actually, I found that to be one of the more interesting parts: strategic social management.

And there is lack of tools to maintain dense array of cities, for example it is hard to guess, which tile belongs to which city


By sheer accident I found something that helps with this, but I can't completely recall what it was. Alt-Shift-leftclick or something like that, when you click on a city it shows which tiles are worked by this city. I wonder how many such neat interface tricks are hidden away :D
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chill
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Re: "Simulation" ruleset, v2.x - WORK IN PROGRESS

Postby chill » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:43 am

My suggestion relates to allowing earlier creation of farmland prior to enabling its benefits from refrigeration and the building of supermarkets. This would allow workers, migrants, engineers, and settlers to double-irrigate to create farmland in anticipation of future benefits. This would be similar to irrigating grassland in anticipation of soon having a revolution to change governments from despotism to monarchy where the actual benefits of the irrigation could be appreciated. This change would be especially useful in this variant of the game with high and increasing tech maintenance that dramatically slows tech achievement. In LT48, I have quite a few workers that were doing make-work for a period of time, since farmland could not be created until refrigeration had been researched.

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Re: "Simulation" ruleset, v2.x - WORK IN PROGRESS

Postby Wahazar » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:46 am

Corbeau wrote:However, even with unique migrants, if you want to disband a city in a hurry, you can always use Settlers.


2 pop cost would be welcome here (while Tribe only 1). Another problem (with disbanding cities) is a large automatic granary.

What do you mean? 50% defense bonus isn't hardcoded. The only thing hardcoded (I think) is the feature that a unit in a city is automatically fortified.

It is exactly what I mean - fortify gives 50% defense bonus.
Thus unit in city size 1 against city buster have 50%+10% -100% = -40% if compared to not fortified field unit, and -90% compared to fortified field unit!
My previous statement about city size 5 was even wrong, any city below 10 is worse for defense than standing on the field fortified (just plain field, no fort).
Not sure if it was intended.

By sheer accident I found something that helps with this, but I can't completely recall what it was. Alt-Shift-leftclick or something like that, when you click on a city it shows which tiles are worked by this city. I wonder how many such neat interface tricks are hidden away :D
[/quote]

Wait... What?!?
cityarea.jpg
cityarea.jpg (25.95 KiB) Viewed 1178 times

And you are talking about it when game is over?

Anyway, I didn't found fun in this 'social management', but it is my private opinion.
But knowledge of Alt Shift LMB was worth of playing this game ;)
Edit: Pity it work only for Gtk client, not Qt
Augmented2 ruleset/modpack for freeciv2.6: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=91047

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Re: "Simulation" ruleset, v2.x - WORK IN PROGRESS

Postby Lachu » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:03 pm

About migrants. You can use unhappiness incremental based on city population. This should be connected (it don't know it's already possible) with reducing migrations based on unhappiness.

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Re: "Simulation" ruleset, v2.x - WORK IN PROGRESS

Postby Corbeau » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:00 pm

chill wrote:My suggestion relates to allowing earlier creation of farmland prior to enabling its benefits from refrigeration and the building of supermarkets. This would allow workers, migrants, engineers, and settlers to double-irrigate to create farmland in anticipation of future benefits. This would be similar to irrigating grassland in anticipation of soon having a revolution to change governments from despotism to monarchy where the actual benefits of the irrigation could be appreciated. This change would be especially useful in this variant of the game with high and increasing tech maintenance that dramatically slows tech achievement. In LT48, I have quite a few workers that were doing make-work for a period of time, since farmland could not be created until refrigeration had been researched.


Good point. But after you wrote this initially, I thought about it and I always found annoying that you have to keep track of what city has the Supermarket and then prioritize farming around that city.

How about this: Supermarket is NOT NEEDED to use farmland, they can be created as soon as the appropriate tech is available.Instead, Supermarket serves as an additional granary, saving additional, I don't know, 20% of food when the city grows? Especially useful for huge cities we have here.

Wahazar, about attack and defense strengths in and out of the city, like I said, point taken, will consider. Yes, it is definitely senseless for a unit to be easier to destroy in a city than in open terrain. But I think the whole attack-defense-hp-fr construction needs some rethinking.

And sorry about the AltShift thing, I used it maybe two times and then forgot about it because I had another system to keep track of things :D
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Re: "Simulation" ruleset, v2.x - WORK IN PROGRESS

Postby Wahazar » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:16 pm

Corbeau wrote:How about this: Supermarket is NOT NEEDED to use farmland, they can be created as soon as the appropriate tech is available.Instead, Supermarket serves as an additional granary, saving additional, I don't know, 20% of food when the city grows?

Such thing is already implemented in augmented2 ruleset, I had same thoughts.
Farmlands are enabled independently by Chemical Synthesis, while Supermarket increases trade by 25% and decrease food waste.
Maybe larger granary idea is even better here? But I'm not sure how granary effect exactly works, so I will leave it as is.
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Re: "Simulation" ruleset, v2.x - WORK IN PROGRESS

Postby Corbeau » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:18 am

The current work-in-progress still-not-thoroughly-tested v2.2 of the Sim ruleset has been requiested, so I'm putting it here. Additional changes and fixes are possible before it is used in the next Longturn game, but for now, this seems finished.

A few notes:

1. The idea is that this ruleset is played with a patch currently available only on Longturn.net that disallows "stealing tech by conquest". Meaning, unlike all otehr versions of Freeciv, when you conquer a city, you don't get a tech from the conquered nation. (All other versions of Freeciv have conquer-tech allowed.)

2. Theoretically, the plan is that the game is played under one of the two variants:
- under Tribal government "empire size limit" is around 20, with an empire size step, only human players
- no empire size limit under any government, but the map is crammed with AIs on hard level

This file contains commented size=20 and step=4. If you wish to use those or any other values, simply uncomment them and adjust. The string you're looking for is "v2.2 variant" in effects.ruleset file.
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