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Wherever there is diplomacy, there are manipulators and deceivers. It is a perfectly valid tactic, but it is also despised by some. Since I belong in that group, I will use this forum to try to put up some defence against it by listing all deceits, lies and broken promises players inflict upon each other, for recording purposes, a warning and reference datasheet to other potential victims. In other words, if you are negotiating with someone whose name is on this list, be prepared that he may not plan to keep his part of the bargain.

Important: Lying and deceiving is not forbidden by any rules. You are under no obligation to play fair. However, once you use this tactic, be aware that the stain on your reputation will probably follow you forever.

Feel free to post cases into this thread. If they seem genuine, I will copy them into the first post.

Obviously, I will start with a contribution.

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Player: Oryx
When&where: Game 1
The Fool: Corbeau
Details: Delayed an attack by asking for peace and then stalled the negotiations until he managed to build walls, which significantly curbed future attacks. Apparently had no intention to make peace at all.

It's a great idea! I love it! Of course wherever reputation and hearsay of things are involved, we enter the domain of gossip. We must also watch for people who would deceive us by saying someone else was the deceiver. Or, if someone deceived you but you saw through it and deceived them back so their own deception backfired, are you then a deceiver? It's an interesting subject, karmic social relations between nations.

I believe there is a simulated metaphysical / religious element to the game, a meta-game, where your behaviour builds reputation which can then follow you from game to game. A deceit in one game might give small advantage but then haunt you for life in other games. Which is just perfect. Karma's a ______.

This isn't really a big case of deceit, but in the beginning of game 1, Andreas used to "accept" my peace offers with a :P , only to move warriors right into my territory again. He's doing a lone wolf playstyle and is not interested in peace at all, as he basically admitted in game 2. Not really a big thing, just a caveat.

I'm not sure I like this thread... Please don't let this get out of hand, as this is not part of the rules.

Corbeau wrote:Important: Lying and deceiving is not forbidden by any rules. You are under no obligation to play fair. However, once you use this tactic, be aware that the stain on your reputation will probably follow you forever.

Caedo, what you describe is not a deceit at all (unless he actually *did* accept your peace offers, but this isn't clear from your post).

Corbeau wrote:Caedo, what you describe is not a deceit at all (unless he actually *did* accept your peace offers, but this isn't clear from your post).

I asked for peace and he said yes. This was before either of us had Writing, so any peace agreements had to be word of mouth. He then didn't act peacefully. That's the entire factual level.

I would like to ask, so there is no subterfuge in games with humans? I understand outright lying being objectionable, but someone stalling for a few desperate turns while they try and finish off the walls that will keep their city safe, the enemy ready to pounce at a moment's notice? That sounds like high drama and good play. Instead they're getting called out in a thread that is not going to end in any kind of well...

Can I start a thread where I will call out players who refused to accept my offers of peace because they would rather run me over with military might? Or extract higher tribute from me? I find that objectionable, especially since I want to play a long time in this game and eliminating me early, while not forbidden by any rules, I feel I should let everyone know about such players and how they can only be dealt with with the very pointy end of a very sharp spear. Talking with them, unless from a position of superiority, will get you nowhere.

A lot of the above post is over the top. I intended it that way. I do not intend to shame anyone, but I think that's what this thread is only going to do.

It would be extremely helpful if you could tell us all what constitutes fair play. I do not want to be labelled a cheater, liar, or manipulator because I did not understand the unwritten rules of a game I just started playing. On an unrelated note, I strongly advise that you never, ever, ever play a game called "Diplomacy." You will find it utterly hateful.

There are no game rules which covers fair play, ethics or deceit at the moment.

AndreasR wrote:There are no game rules which covers fair play, ethics or deceit at the moment.

And it should remain that way. Most important, because such rules would be impossible to impose and, if attempted to, the mechanism would be way too complicated and cumbersome.

Secondly, Civ is also a game of diplomacy and what is diplomacy without some stretching the truth, some covert operations and all And the true art of it is getting things done without really lying, but doing it the professional way.