The Black Book of Deceit (or: Fool me once...)

Planning and discussing Freeciv Longturn gaming
Corbeau
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Re: The Black Book of Deceit (or: Fool me once...)

Postby Corbeau » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:55 am

Civothy wrote:I would like to ask, so there is no subterfuge in games with humans? I understand outright lying being objectionable, but someone stalling for a few desperate turns while they try and finish off the walls that will keep their city safe, the enemy ready to pounce at a moment's notice? That sounds like high drama and good play. Instead they're getting called out in a thread that is not going to end in any kind of well...

Actually, that would be perfectly legit, except that what you describe was nothing like the real situation. Besides, there is something illogical in what you say: if peace is already on the table, there is no desperation involved, why not go along with negotiations and solve the problem as a whole? But since the deceit happened, there is no other course than complete destruction because there can be no future deals, ever.


Can I start a thread where I will call out players who refused to accept my offers of peace because they would rather run me over with military might? Or extract higher tribute from me? I find that objectionable, especially since I want to play a long time in this game and eliminating me early, while not forbidden by any rules, I feel I should let everyone know about such players and how they can only be dealt with with the very pointy end of a very sharp spear. Talking with them, unless from a position of superiority, will get you nowhere.

Absolutely. Actually, I would very much like if everybody would write down their experiences with diplomacy, encounters with other players. It would be great if there was a news service that would report on events that are happening in the game because it's a thousand times more fun if you actually know what is going on in your surroundings.

A lot of the above post is over the top. I intended it that way. I do not intend to shame anyone, but I think that's what this thread is only going to do.

No. This thread is going to (or should) create a database that people will look into while negotiating so that they get some information about who they are negotiating with. There will probably be some counterinformation, but that only means that everyone will have to sift through the data and decide for themselves what is accurate. The more the fun.

It would be extremely helpful if you could tell us all what constitutes fair play. I do not want to be labelled a cheater, liar, or manipulator because I did not understand the unwritten rules of a game I just started playing.

Couldn't be simpler. Fair-play is not "saying one thing and then doing something completely different". Or "breaking your word". Really, simple.

On an unrelated note, I strongly advise that you never, ever, ever play a game called "Diplomacy." You will find it utterly hateful.

Played it, loved it, won, lost, backstabbed, been backstabbed, the whole thing. But that is a completely different game. There you have to fight, that is, attack, it's a war game. In Civilization, you don't have to attack anyone, you don't have to fight (unless you have aggressive neighbours) and you have plenty of other things to do.

In Diplomacy you don't really have to backstab, but sometimes it's a valid tactic. In Civilization it may also be a valid tactic if it is the only way to survive. But if that is the case and you end up in this thread, a discussion will ensue and the whole case will be explained from more sides.

Corbeau
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Re: The Black Book of Deceit (or: Fool me once...)

Postby Corbeau » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:16 am

Civothy wrote:It would be extremely helpful if you could tell us all what constitutes fair play. I do not want to be labelled a cheater, liar, or manipulator because I did not understand the unwritten rules of a game I just started playing.

And, just to be perfectly clear: nobody is mentioning "cheating" here because, as I said, deceiving is not forbidden by any set of rules. This thread is simply supposed to give information about what happened. What I wrote happened. He may claim that I was bullying him. I may claim that he attacked me, was never interested in peace and that he started whining when it backfired on him. All of that is subject to interpretation. Sometimes deceit will be justified, it is up to the deceiver to try to prove that.

Again, this thread is about sharing knowledge, not about judging. Everybody is permitted to lie and decieve, hell, I can not promise that I'll never do that. But when people are making decisions, it is cool to have as much information as possible.

GriffonSpade
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Re: The Black Book of Deceit (or: Fool me once...)

Postby GriffonSpade » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:44 pm

Perhaps it would be better if each news/black book thread were limited to a single LT game? Would make it easier for people to keep up with what's going on in a particular LT game.

Lexxie
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Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:18 pm

Re: The Black Book of Deceit (or: Fool me once...)

Postby Lexxie » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:47 pm

Players: 1. mallepietje 2. accomplishednoob
When/Where: Game 1
Multi-player alliance. Technology sharing, gold loaning, strategy discussions. Our northern ally Darkdusk gets attacked. I coordinate to help him and help rush the purchase of reinforcements, doing my part. The only way to help him is coming through my territory. In comes accomplishednoob, talks mallepietje into going into diplomacy window and several times they are rearranging pact status to finally get themselves out of the alliance. Then instead of helping our neighbour, they take my cities. Now the alliance of 4 is split in two, productive cities all have 1 less population, there are less bulbs total, I'm out of the game, there is one less mind contributing strategy and intelligence, and their reputation will get whatever people think of such tactics. A seemingly genius tricky move that in my opinion is actually rather ignorant of superior play. Sure, I could have not trusted them, but you start the game with odds against you and a huge number of other players. Winners are likely the ones whose superior diplomacy and cooperation enhance their better game mechanics. So you have to take risks and just hope you don't have bad neighbours who will bring everyone down with themselves.

OK, I was venting a little. It just happened to me.

Hmmm, I wonder if this qualifies for the black book of deceit?

GrantHenninger
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Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:28 pm

Re: The Black Book of Deceit (or: Fool me once...)

Postby GrantHenninger » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:35 pm

It'll be interesting to see how the reputation players earn from these types of tricks will carry forward from one game to another.

Canik
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Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:26 am

Re: The Black Book of Deceit (or: Fool me once...)

Postby Canik » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:07 am

Lexxie wrote:Players: 1. mallepietje 2. accomplishednoob
When/Where: Game 1
Multi-player alliance. Technology sharing, gold loaning, strategy discussions. Our northern ally Darkdusk gets attacked. I coordinate to help him and help rush the purchase of reinforcements, doing my part. The only way to help him is coming through my territory. In comes accomplishednoob, talks mallepietje into going into diplomacy window and several times they are rearranging pact status to finally get themselves out of the alliance. Then instead of helping our neighbour, they take my cities. Now the alliance of 4 is split in two, productive cities all have 1 less population, there are less bulbs total, I'm out of the game, there is one less mind contributing strategy and intelligence, and their reputation will get whatever people think of such tactics. A seemingly genius tricky move that in my opinion is actually rather ignorant of superior play. Sure, I could have not trusted them, but you start the game with odds against you and a huge number of other players. Winners are likely the ones whose superior diplomacy and cooperation enhance their better game mechanics. So you have to take risks and just hope you don't have bad neighbours who will bring everyone down with themselves.

OK, I was venting a little. It just happened to me.

Hmmm, I wonder if this qualifies for the black book of deceit?


Sounds like it would qualify. Also, are you saying you sent money to them to help rush reinforcements then they used that money to destroy you? Heh it makes for a good story. But I agree with you it seems short-sighted. Maybe the enemies attacking Darkdusk were much stronger and so they made a deal with them. Then it would make some long-term sense. Anyway it's a very interesting story and I'm glad you shared it. I'd like to hear more about it and see how it plays out for accomplishednoob in the end.

Btw Game 3 put me in a super weak nation with Mallepietje bordering half my nation. xD So far he's been nice tho and shown me mercy.

Corbeau
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Re: The Black Book of Deceit (or: Fool me once...)

Postby Corbeau » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:37 am

If you want to hear more of the story, just tune in to the game chat :)


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