Sniper attack

What would you like to see in Freeciv? Do you have a good idea what should be improved or how?
Ignatus
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Sniper attack

Postby Ignatus » Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:59 pm

Civ3 feature of Submarines: on a marine tile with a stack of enemy units, it can select one to attack instead of fighting the strongest defender. It would be nice to have. I would even more like this for robbers and pirates that could eliminate guardians and capture the transports and caravans they protected instead of killing the whole stack.

jwrober
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Re: Sniper attack

Postby jwrober » Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:09 pm

Would this occur only when killstack is enabled?

Ignatus
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Re: Sniper attack

Postby Ignatus » Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:17 pm

No, just even without killstack you don't normally select a defender when you attack a tile. But of course stack death should never be applied to this action.

Wahazar
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Re: Sniper attack

Postby Wahazar » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:56 pm

I think it is unfair feature, why to protect stack of your transports, if anybody can cherry-pick them?
Eventually move points after such actions should be depleted (like for bombarding), to mimic reality:
if submarine decided to attack convoy protected by destroyers, they will notice where it is by looking at the torpedo trails,
thus attacking transport without sinking its protectors should be the almost suicide mission (Das Boot music intensifies...)
Augmented2 ruleset/modpack for freeciv2.6: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=91047

Ignatus
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Re: Sniper attack

Postby Ignatus » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:17 am

Wahazar wrote:I think it is unfair feature, why to protect stack of your transports, if anybody can cherry-pick them?

Well, it was the actual situation when submarines had just appeared... You can e.g. close your convey with destroyers from all sides... Or send transpors with enough place to rescue the drowning... It's intended to be annoying, performable by hi-tech, expensive, weak or barbarian only units. But yes, low mp or OneAttack flag may suite some types of snipers. Server-side autoattack btw will greatly reduce sniper's advantage if the attack is not ranged.
I can also suggest introducing interception chances - better defenders present may have some chance to notice the sniper before he shoots from ambush and oppose him (either defend or counter-attack). Somehow similar (ranged) ability do have Civ3 fighters against bombers on their "patrol" mission.
Also, maybe sniper could just miss the target. It's a pity Freeciv can't cause diplomatic storm by accidentally firing a peaceful unit.

sveinung
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Re: Sniper attack

Postby sveinung » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:49 am

Ignatus wrote:it can select one to attack instead of fighting the strongest defender..


Now Feature #865514.

nef
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Re: Sniper attack

Postby nef » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:47 am

Wahazar wrote:to mimic reality:
if submarine decided to attack convoy protected by destroyers, they will notice where it is by looking at the torpedo trails,
thus attacking transport without sinking its protectors should be the almost suicide mission


In fact this is precisely what the wolf packs did: attack the cargo ships and keep WELL CLEAR of the destroyer escort. Destroyers were very good at destroying. The name is actually TBD (for short! - torpedo boat destroyer and submarines were just the natural development (semi submersible -> fully submersible). It was a one sided contest. The destroyers had a shallow draft so the torpedoes went straight underneath. At one point the Germans developed a torpedo that homed in on the prop sound but this was quickly defeated with rattlers towed behind the destroyer. In short, as soon as the sub caught sight of the TBD it was time for THE DEEP DIVE. And, in fact, the torpedo trails were used in the hunt, but the subs would attack where the TBD's were furthest away, giving them time to sink a few ships before making a run for it.

drgerg
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Re: Sniper attack

Postby drgerg » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:59 pm

Wahazar wrote:to mimic reality: attack the cargo ships

Just read the book “The Battle Between the Birds and the Wolves”, where it documents that Admiral Doenitz ordered his uboats to go after the escort carriers first. This was to counteract the ability of the carrier based planes ability to spot and attack the subs. I don’t have page number, but I think the order was sent to his fleet in the April/May 43 timeframe.

The book is a very good read about one of many (unsung) reasons why German navy lost so many subs and sailors. In this case, we learn how the British navy developed new tactics.

nef
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Re: Sniper attack

Postby nef » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:44 pm

drgerg wrote:Just read the book “The Battle Between the Birds and the Wolves”, where it documents that Admiral Doenitz ordered his uboats to go after the escort carriers first.

Doesn't surprise me one little bit. Planes are a bit faster than the destroyers and turned out to be the real game changer at the end of WWII. The brits ripped the top of all manner of merchant ships and put down wooden planking for this very purpose of attacking subs. The other part of this story is the development of radar to detect the conning tower. For all but the very end of the Atlantic war the subs were essentially surface ships that could hide underwater. They would run up and down the lanes in the convoy on the surface at night choosing their targets. The first German response (to the radar) was the development of the snorkel so they could run on diesel just below the surface but the surface hulls made them too slow. The second development came too late: the tear drop hull design which is characteristic of subs to this very day.

Perhaps the book can clarify some of this.