trireme on land exploit

What would you like to see in Freeciv? Do you have a good idea what should be improved or how?
Wahazar
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Re: trireme on land exploit

Postby Wahazar » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:50 am

Well, lets summarize to clear possible misunderstanding.
    There can be following cases:
  • ship with land units on ocean: attacked is ship, if die, land units die - it is normal behavior.
  • ship with air units on ocean: attacked is ship, but air units survive - it is weird behavior.
  • ship with land units on river: is treated like a normal stack (best defender is attacked) but this stack is not visible for attacker. Moreover, loaded units can be fortified. Very weird and unfair behavior.
The second case seems to be effect of code wipe out units, which can't survive - it is in version 2.5, but can't find it in current branch - it was fixed?
I also don't understand, where the third case is coded.
I found unit_attack_any_at_tile_result function in common/combat.c where transported units are excluded from being taken into attack consideration.
Augmented2 ruleset/modpack for freeciv2.6: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=91047

cazfi
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Re: trireme on land exploit

Postby cazfi » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:53 am

Wahazar wrote:* ship with land units on river: is treated like a normal stack (best defender is attacked) but this stack is not visible for attacker. Moreover, loaded units can be fortified. Very weird and unfair behavior.
...
I also don't understand, where the third case is coded.


unit_can_defend_here():

Code: Select all

  /* Do not just check if unit is transported.
   * Even transported units may step out from transport to fight,
   * if this is their native terrain. */
  return (can_unit_exist_at_tile(punit, unit_tile(punit))
          && (ptrans == NULL || can_unit_unload(punit, ptrans)));

Wahazar
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Re: trireme on land exploit

Postby Wahazar » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:02 am

Thanks, so it is intended behavior. I always unloaded units from trireme between turns, to avoid its lost.
I understand, that this hack is to avoid such unloading/loading units manually - unfortunately this implementation is debatable.
It is unfair that player didn't see stack, but must to fight with it, and that it is possible to fortify inside boat.
Either stack should to be visible, or just behavior similar to carrier with airplanes should be applied (if you kill trireme on land, units inside can survive and you need to fight with them later).
Augmented2 ruleset/modpack for freeciv2.6: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=91047

Ignatus
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Re: trireme on land exploit

Postby Ignatus » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:45 pm


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Re: trireme on land exploit

Postby Grumbler » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:01 pm

speaking of triremes and slightly OT, i'm rather new to freeciv and was surprised by the feature that they can travel rivers (which isn't in any commercial civ i know of), but it makes sense.

this also offers tactical possibilities.

when you upgrade triremes though, they become transports. that makes no sense, as they lose the ability to travel rivers then. keeping triremes is anachronistic though.

thus, maybe there should be a new equivalent unit for the modern era. maybe a motorboat?

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Corbeau
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Re: trireme on land exploit

Postby Corbeau » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:13 pm

We are experimenting with rulesets a lot in the Longturn community, drop by and play a game :)

Ignatus
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Re: trireme on land exploit

Postby Ignatus » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:42 am

In LT49 triremes just never expire, they look clumsy near AEGIS cruisers but they do their job. I have seen graphics for steamboats on "Art and tilesets", probably in some rulesets somebody had a Trireme+ unit.

Wahazar
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Re: trireme on land exploit

Postby Wahazar » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:41 am

Ignatus wrote: I have seen graphics for steamboats on "Art and tilesets", probably in some rulesets somebody had a Trireme+ unit.

Yes, for example augmented2 modpack have whole branch of Coaster class, capable to go on shallow sea or river.
As Grumbler stated, it offers new tactical possibilities, which may drastically change game balance. In case of augmented2, where land units are divided into different classes, early units like Trireme can carry only infantry, while more advanced units can carry also cavalry, and most advanced Diesel Barge can carry all including artillery/tanks. At this point of tech tree you have also Marines, thus such Diesel Barge doesn't abruptly change game balance.

BTW, it would be awesome to have unit weight instead of/beside of unit count capacity, it would be useful to limit transport capabilities instead of using classes, and to get rid of infamous 10 elephants/11 archers effect.
Augmented2 ruleset/modpack for freeciv2.6: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=91047