Unload on land use one mp

What would you like to see in Freeciv? Do you have a good idea what should be improved or how?
Wahazar
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Unload on land use one mp

Postby Wahazar » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:13 pm

Currently unload without moving doesn't cost any movement points.
This is not an issue in case of only ocean transports, but if transporting units is capable to go on land (such trireme, train etc), you can push transport, unload, attack, load and retreat in one turn - it is much overpowered in my opinion.
I suggest to drain 1 mp during each unload by order, except this inside city.

nef
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Re: Unload on land use one mp

Postby nef » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:48 pm


Akechi
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Re: Unload on land use one mp

Postby Akechi » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:36 pm

It seems like native tile version of slow_invasions.
It maybe better if mp decrease is changeable by ruleset or server option.

(Off-topic)
Wahazar wrote:Currently unload without moving doesn't cost any movement points.

Due to above, Freeciv 2.6 or after can ship hopping. (reference link: https://web.archive.org/web/20170307032 ... ugs/?13943 and https://web.archive.org/web/20170307034 ... atch/?4805)

Wahazar
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Re: Unload on land use one mp

Postby Wahazar » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:46 pm


I was not aware about ship hopping issue.
However I'm not sure, how it works:
1. Does "lose" mean subtraction from initial mp of transported unit?
2. What is for "movement cost of transporter"?
Attached examples claim, that it is equal 1.

Akechi
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Re: Unload on land use one mp

Postby Akechi » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:58 am

However, this unload rule reduces usefulness of civ2civ3's Helicopter like unit... :?
////////
Wahazar wrote:1. Does "lose" mean subtraction from initial mp of transported unit?
2. What is for "movement cost of transporter"?
Attached examples claim, that it is equal 1.
1. Yes.
2. Amount of mp what transporter consumed. Ship's movement cost is 1 because they have not TerrainSpeed unitclass flag.

Wahazar
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Re: Unload on land use one mp

Postby Wahazar » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:58 pm

Akechi wrote:However, this unload rule reduces usefulness of civ2civ3's Helicopter like unit... :?

What about ignoring this rule if unit have embark/disembark field matched with carrier class?

Akechi wrote:2. Amount of mp what transporter consumed. Ship's movement cost is 1 because they have not TerrainSpeed unitclass flag.

Still unclear for me, but whole concept of these movement fractions is unclear.
Let set, we have Engineers (2 mp) which can carry land unit, for example Armor (also 2 mp).
What happen to Armor mp, after dislocated by Engineers for 1 or 2 tiles on plains?

Akechi
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Re: Unload on land use one mp

Postby Akechi » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:03 pm

Wahazar wrote:What about ignoring this rule if unit have embark/disembark field matched with carrier class?
If there are exception behavior, I think it maybe better to create new unit flag to control.
////////
Wahazar wrote:Still unclear for me, but whole concept of these movement fractions is unclear.
Let set, we have Engineers (2 mp) which can carry land unit, for example Armor (also 2 mp).
What happen to Armor mp, after dislocated by Engineers for 1 or 2 tiles on plains?
Is Engineers and Armor's initial mp 2?
If so, transported Armor loses 2*1/2=1mp if transporter Engineers move 1mp cost Plains.
If Engineers move 1/3 mp cost road, then Armor loses 2*(1/3)/2=1/3 mp.

In the real world for example, if you take a train that takes 1 hour to destination, the only thing you can do in 1 hour is to kill time on the train. You lose mp with train.
Even if Usain Bolt takes a train that takes 1 hour to destination, the only thing Bolt can do in 1 hour is to kill time on the train (maybe :? ). No matter 100m running speed.

Ignatus
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Re: Unload on land use one mp

Postby Ignatus » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:19 pm

Akechi has suggested an interesting and logical idea, though one turning the game very different, with more realism and some less obviosity in unit movement; should be used without slow_invasions.

There can be another transporting limitation, used AFAIK in CivII - to nullify mp on _load_ into a transport; it will actually help the ship-hopping problem if some movement points are required to board at the same tile.

My idea is to introduce game.ruleset parameters to control the load/unload behaviour:
# load_slow = "no"(current style)/"move"(lose as much mp as on standard one-tile move even if load from the same tile)/"full"(any boarding requieres nonzero mp and takes all of them)
# embarks_fast="no"/"native"(exclude 'embarks'-listed units from load slowdown if the transporter is on a native tile)/"always"
# unload_slow = "no"(current behaviour)/"move"/[number of fragments](to subtract for TerrainSpeed units when slow_invasions are not in effect and for other units always when reloading on another carrier/city/native base)/"always"(slow_invasions is in effect for any unload/reload)
# disembarks_fast = "no"/"native"/"always"(exclude 'disembarks'-listed units from unload slowdown, the last option turns off for them slow_invasions)

Also, we can prohibit some specific reloadings by inventing an action enabler for "Load" action and setting an actor requirement "UnitSate", "Transported", "Local", FALSE.

Wahazar
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Re: Unload on land use one mp

Postby Wahazar » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:57 pm

If there are exception behavior, I think it maybe better to create new unit flag to control.

I disagree because of Occam's razor rule. Flag such like "Marines" or "Embark/disembark" are already reserved for fast loading/unloading, thus any mp penalty should not happen.

Ignatus wrote:My idea is to introduce game.ruleset parameters to control the load/unload behaviour:
...
# unload_slow = "no"(current behaviour)/"move"/[number of fragments](to subtract for TerrainSpeed units when slow_invasions are not in effect and for other units always when reloading on another carrier/city/native base)/"always"(slow_invasions is in effect for any unload/reload)
If options are different than "no", they should not apply to "Marines" unit flag or "Attackfromnonnative" class flag.

Ignatus
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Re: Unload on land use one mp

Postby Ignatus » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:39 pm

Wahazar wrote:If options are different than "no", they should not apply to "Marines" unit flag or "Attackfromnonnative" class flag.

Why? If the target is to limit transported behaviour, Marines should be subject to it as any other units. When they attack from the board, they don't unload and these effects are not important for them.