"Each Civ gets it's own bonuses" why not? easy to implement.

What would you like to see in Freeciv? Do you have a good idea what should be improved or how?
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archeologistfossils
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"Each Civ gets it's own bonuses" why not? easy to implement.

Post by archeologistfossils »

I believe that every Civ should get some starting bonuses.

Dryads for example would immediately start with environmentalism and so one. things befitting the nation would be included, for example it would include a check box in the settings "enable Civ start bonuses"

maybe Dryads are vegan or something, Dryads start with environmentalism and get some bonuses to plant based foods from the land such as seaweed from the ocean or fruit from jungle trees or farmland or rivers or irrigation.

this could be done more or less for basically every Civ. some would have the same exact bonuses, if a generalized enough bonus set could be made for Civs that too little is known about or seem similar enough. I don't want to be lazy, but rather I'm trying my best to describe this.
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Alien Valkyrie
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Re: "Each Civ gets it's own bonuses" why not? easy to implement.

Post by Alien Valkyrie »

Yeah. Good luck adding that for all the 500+ nations. Also, good luck making it balanced so that no nation is inherently better or worse off than the others.</sarcasm>

You can create your own ruleset with certain special bonuses for certain nations, and if you can do that for all of the fifty core nations, maybe your rulseset could be added to the supplied rulesets. But this is a huge task, so don't expect to be done with it too soon - even just getting good ideas for fifty different nations might take a while, and while implementing most of them won't be difficult, balancing them will.
And truth be told, adding an individual bonus for all 559 nations is outside the realm of possibilities. You'll probably have a much easier time creating a whole new ruleset from the ground up in your own setting with your own nations and tribes and bonuses. That's not to say you shouldn't try - quite on the contrary! Just don't be disappointed if you lose your élan somewhere along the way.
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dunnoob
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Re: "Each Civ gets it's own bonuses" why not? easy to implement.

Post by dunnoob »

Caedo wrote:Just don't be disappointed if you lose your élan somewhere along the way.
A good starting point could be Alien World, a limited set of completely new nations with different features. It's possible, but I'm also not tempted to try it anytime soon. :D
archeologistfossils
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Re: "Each Civ gets it's own bonuses" why not? easy to implement.

Post by archeologistfossils »

Caedo wrote:Yeah. Good luck adding that for all the 500+ nations. Also, good luck making it balanced so that no nation is inherently better or worse off than the others.</sarcasm>

You can create your own ruleset with certain special bonuses for certain nations, and if you can do that for all of the fifty core nations, maybe your rulseset could be added to the supplied rulesets. But this is a huge task, so don't expect to be done with it too soon - even just getting good ideas for fifty different nations might take a while, and while implementing most of them won't be difficult, balancing them will.
And truth be told, adding an individual bonus for all 559 nations is outside the realm of possibilities. You'll probably have a much easier time creating a whole new ruleset from the ground up in your own setting with your own nations and tribes and bonuses. That's not to say you shouldn't try - quite on the contrary! Just don't be disappointed if you lose your élan somewhere along the way.

dunnoob wrote:
Caedo wrote:Just don't be disappointed if you lose your élan somewhere along the way.
A good starting point could be Alien World, a limited set of completely new nations with different features. It's possible, but I'm also not tempted to try it anytime soon. :D

at first I thought I didn't like your comment and started to get angry and think "oh great the same type of trolls as usual" but when I got to the end I realized you were both different. Hey, thanks for being cool.

I'm guessing maybe the very base bonus for all civs would start as "pottery/alphabet" and some other minor bonus or something very simple, and the really unique Civs that stand out in a certain way could recieve more specific bonuses.

for example, a few hundred very, well lets just say boring because I can't find the right word for it right now, Civs would have the same start bonus. Dryad could have environmentalism and some plant/farm/food bonuses while vampire might get extra food bonuses from winning battles with meat-based enemies and they could start with pottery (to store the blood in?) I don't know.

basically

boring Civs: get some standard bonus
Unique Civs: get a more fitting but not more overpowered bonus than the standard bonus
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GriffonSpade
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Re: "Each Civ gets it's own bonuses" why not? easy to implement.

Post by GriffonSpade »

I would think the easiest way to do this would be to create civilization groupings instead of giving everyone unique bonuses. Assign nations a certain number of traits, then give each nation a combination of these traits. Starting with a limited civilization set would be for the best, though.

I'm not sure how much our current flag system is good for this, though. Do we have nation flags that can be used for effects or requirements or something? (Code flags I mean, not, you know, flag sprites)
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JTN
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Re: "Each Civ gets it's own bonuses" why not? easy to implement.

Post by JTN »

GriffonSpade wrote:I'm not sure how much our current flag system is good for this, though. Do we have nation flags that can be used for effects or requirements or something? (Code flags I mean, not, you know, flag sprites)
Starting with 2.6, rulesets will be able to test the "nation group" ([ngroup_medieval] etc in nations.ruleset) in effects with the NationGroup requirement, and nation groups can be defined as 'hidden' so they don't show up in the nation selection UI; thus nation groups can behave like unit type flags, etc. See "ngroup_barbarian" for an example.

That will let you do ongoing bonuses this way, but there's no such shortcut to granting initial techs/units/etc; that's baked into individual nation definitions.

(I don't think it will ever be practical for the standard nation set to get different behaviour for different nations. The most we could do would be to add such groups for custom rulesets to hook into, if any sufficiently useful and uncontroversial properties of the >500 shipping nations can be found.)
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GriffonSpade
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Re: "Each Civ gets it's own bonuses" why not? easy to implement.

Post by GriffonSpade »

JTN wrote:
GriffonSpade wrote:I'm not sure how much our current flag system is good for this, though. Do we have nation flags that can be used for effects or requirements or something? (Code flags I mean, not, you know, flag sprites)
Starting with 2.6, rulesets will be able to test the "nation group" ([ngroup_medieval] etc in nations.ruleset) in effects with the NationGroup requirement, and nation groups can be defined as 'hidden' so they don't show up in the nation selection UI; thus nation groups can behave like unit type flags, etc. See "ngroup_barbarian" for an example.

That will let you do ongoing bonuses this way, but there's no such shortcut to granting initial techs/units/etc; that's baked into individual nation definitions.

(I don't think it will ever be practical for the standard nation set to get different behaviour for different nations. The most we could do would be to add such groups for custom rulesets to hook into, if any sufficiently useful and uncontroversial properties of the >500 shipping nations can be found.)
Edit: Though, thinking about it, using the nation groups for this probably isn't necessary. In hindsight, nation group-based flags probably wouldn't be very useful for units, the only place it would be different from just using the extant nationgroup property. The nation style would be far more important, as far as units are concerned. I've editted the post to not use nation groups in it.

Actually, I'm kinda curious, are units getting the same requirement format as the other files in 3.0? Seems a mite odd that it's different from buildings and governments. It would certainly mitigate a lot (though certainly not all for ruleset modders) of the need if unit requirements become more flexible.

Hmm, the primary purpose of nation group is to group nation selection, so you can't really modify that without mucking up its intended purpose. Likewise, one can't add to nation style at all without breaking it.

What about a "nation flags" property (code flags, need a better name for distinction, nflag for short?) that would be used for this purpose? Default would just be practically identical to nation style, but ruleset modders could alter it without being limited to the nation style. This property could then be used as a requirement for effects, buildings, governments, and especially units. For default rulesets, there would be no truly new information, since all 500+ nations already belong to the parallel groupings for nation style.

So say Abkhaz might have an entry that looks like this:

Code: Select all

nflags="Classical"
Because these would be used for nothing BUT code flags, in nationlist.ruleset, the flag entries could look more like terrain or unit flags:

Code: Select all

[control]
; Names for custom terrain flags. There can be up to ## of these.
; name          = rule name; In some circumstances user may see this
;                 as part of some sentences, so try to make it descriptive
;                 and sensible.
; helptxt       = displayed in the help for nations with this flag (optional)
flags =
  { "name", "helptxt"
    _("European")
    _("Classical"), _("This nation is Classical style.")
    _("Tropical")
    _("Asian")
    _("Babylonian")
    _("Celtic")
  }
These would need to be appended to the top of individual nation help information, but only if helptxt isn't blank, in the same way as units. (So only Classical would get displayed there)
There are 6 nation styles, so ## would need to be at least 8 for this. 32 would probably be optimal.

units, buildings, and governments would have entries like this:

(unit help)

Code: Select all

; nflag_req     = required nation flag, names from nationlist.ruleset
(unit entry)

Code: Select all

nflag_req     = "Classical"
(governments/buildings/effects entry)

Code: Select all

reqs = { "type", "name", "range"
         "nflag", "Classical", "Player"
       }
Last edited by GriffonSpade on Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
cazfi
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Re: "Each Civ gets it's own bonuses" why not? easy to implement.

Post by cazfi »

GriffonSpade wrote:all 500+ nations already belong to parallel groupings for other purposes.(nation groups and city style)
You could probably get quite far by taking advantage of the nation style changes of freeciv-2.6. Each nation has a national style. Initial city style is no longer directly property of a nation, but usually it's property of a national style (& other reqs - city style can differ even within nation based on things like terrain and the buildings city has).
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GriffonSpade
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Re: "Each Civ gets it's own bonuses" why not? easy to implement.

Post by GriffonSpade »

cazfi wrote:
GriffonSpade wrote:all 500+ nations already belong to parallel groupings for other purposes.(nation groups and city style)
You could probably get quite far by taking advantage of the nation style changes of freeciv-2.6. Each nation has a national style. Initial city style is no longer directly property of a nation, but usually it's property of a national style (& other reqs - city style can differ even within nation based on things like terrain and the buildings city has).
Oh, I hadn't even realized that it was actually referencing nation style now instead of simply city style. Apparently, I'd botched my first edit too, and didn't fix it until after you'd posted. And now I've gone and editted it again.
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