Bring early trireme attacks back from death

What would you like to see in Freeciv? Do you have a good idea what should be improved or how?
pekka
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Bring early trireme attacks back from death

Postby pekka » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:58 pm

Hi
I'm a regulary player of freeciv @ public servers. And I suggest we get old trireme features back.
Due to the fact that this forum has been unavailable, this request has also been posted here: https://freeciv.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Br ... from_death

For those of you that didn't have the privilege to play freeciv before 2.2.0 came out, have a look at https://freeciv.wikia.com/wiki/Trireme
This ruleset was for some reason changed, maybe due to code complexity? I think this change was a big mistake. Old rules that enabled triremes to sail at deep ocean, also enabled a viable strategy for players that wanted early war.

My suggestion is a slimmed down version of old rules:
1) Enable trireme to sail at deep ocean tiles with e.g 30% loss probability. Make this loss probability available as a variable in units.ruleset-file
2) Lighthouse remove loss probability for triremes, like in old ruleset: https://freeciv.wikia.com/wiki/
3) Make it possible to choose current rules or "new" old rules when setting server, or as an option in units.ruleset-file

This slimmed down ruleset for triremes avoid all the the tech-dependent complexity that old trireme rules had.

Current solutions:
The lack of early trireme attacks have already spawned some hacking on the ruleset. But due to the hardcoded nature of unitclass_trireme, these modifications are done just by redefine triremes to unitclass_sea. Or, as in mine ruleset hack, http://freeciv-mundi.org/forum/viewtopi ... =153#p1607 a new unit "longship" is introduced as an "uppgraded" trireme belonging to unitclass_sea.
In my eyes all this is inferior "ad-hock" solutions, that would be much cleaner implemented by changing the features of unitclass_trireme.

----
Pekka

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Caedo
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Re: Bring early trireme attacks back from death

Postby Caedo » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:59 pm

Image
However, I think they should only have to stay on coast type ocean(the standard one), not directly next to land.
I think with some lua scripting I could actually make that happen.

EDIT: There's also the unit flag "Trireme" making it impossible for the unit to even leave the shoreline.
~ A.V. L.

cazfi
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Re: Bring early trireme attacks back from death

Postby cazfi » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:05 am

Caedo wrote:EDIT: There's also the unit flag "Trireme" making it impossible for the unit to even leave the shoreline.

I don't know if this clarifies anything, but historical record goes like this.

In the very old versions:
- Triremes were units with "Trireme" flag
- There was just one Ocean type
- Triremes were able to leave shoreline, but if they ended turn not near safe-coast, they risked sinking

Step 1 (in rules evolving)
- Concept of dangerous tiles were removed (mainly due to pathfinding complexity, I think) and as part of that units with "Trireme" flag were unable even to leave shoreline

Step 2:
- Separate Deep Ocean terrain was introduced
- "Trireme" flag was removed from default ruleset triremes (it's still used in civ/2 rules) and instead trireme class that couldn't enter Deep Ocean was introduced.

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Caedo
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Re: Bring early trireme attacks back from death

Postby Caedo » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:04 pm

Yeah, that's how I understood it. The Raft in the Alien World ruleset has the flag.
One could get back to the old style by writing a script checking for every Trireme wether it's next to land or not. Then, based on techs, wonders etc. the script may delete the Trireme with some chance. Then you'd only need to remove the Deep Ocean("floor")-type ocean and you'd be done.
~ A.V. L.

cazfi
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Re: Bring early trireme attacks back from death

Postby cazfi » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:14 pm

Yes, if you don't care about pathfinding; goto -routes or AI. Human player can navigate by moving units step by step but IA is likely to end losing a lot of vessels to high seas.

pekka
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Re: Bring early trireme attacks back from death

Postby pekka » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:11 pm

Hi
I have been taking a deeper look in the files. In terrain.ruleset I see there are 3 terrain flags for water tiles: UnsafeCoast, Oceanic and FreshWater.
Some googling and I find this post http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.games.f ... evel/64383
As I understand, "UnsafeCoast" flag is not in use anymore. But what if the flag "UnsafeCoast" was resurrected from the grave, and used to make deep ocean tiles (dark blue) unsafe for triremes. This and an option in effects.ruleset, where we can set loss probability for UnsafeCoast tiles, and the effect of LightHouse.

To eliminate AI loosing triremes, AI-triremes can use flag:Sea, which will lead to no loosing at all. And if new players find AIs too hard to handle, they can decreace probability of early attacks from AIs just by flagging triremes as triremes, if this is possible.

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Re: Bring early trireme attacks back from death

Postby cazfi » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:05 am

pekka wrote:Hi
Some googling and I find this post http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.games.f ... evel/64383
As I understand, "UnsafeCoast" flag is not in use anymore.


The mail was about "UnsafeOcean" that never existed but which someone had decided to mention in documentation anyway. "UnsafeCoast" is still used for units with "Trireme" flag (which default ruleset unit "Trireme" is not)

Sarilho1
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Re: Bring early trireme attacks back from death

Postby Sarilho1 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:38 pm

You can let triremes sail in deep seas. When they sail in low waters they are safe (and it could be created a code to make IA normally the low waters). When they end the turn (or just sail, I don't know) in deep seas, they have a low chance of survive. It could also be added to caravels and galleons, but with a higher chance of surviving.

My propose can be explain by historical facts. There was triremes sailing all across the Mediterranean sea (and in some points this sea is deep) and in the Atlantic ocean, but, of course, there were losses. In the other and, there were also losses of caravels and galleons (mainly due to excess of charge) when they were crossing the deep Atlantic ocean. The charge could also be a factor that increase the chance of losing triremes, caravels or galleons in Freeciv.

pekka
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Re: Bring early trireme attacks back from death

Postby pekka » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:29 pm

cazfi wrote:
pekka wrote:Hi
Some googling and I find this post http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.games.f ... evel/64383
As I understand, "UnsafeCoast" flag is not in use anymore.


The mail was about "UnsafeOcean" that never existed but which someone had decided to mention in documentation anyway. "UnsafeCoast" is still used for units with "Trireme" flag (which default ruleset unit "Trireme" is not)


I see, I'm mixing two different terrain-flags. Since "UnsafeOcean" didnt have a life at all, then instead of resurrecting the flag from the grave, maybe we should give birth to the "UnsafeOcean" flag. And use newborn "UnsafeOcean" flag to make deep ocean (dark blue) tiles unsafe for triremes.


Sarilho1 wrote:You can let triremes sail in deep seas. When they sail in low waters they are safe (and it could be created a code to make IA normally the low waters). When they end the turn (or just sail, I don't know) in deep seas, they have a low chance of survive. It could also be added to caravels and galleons, but with a higher chance of surviving.

My propose can be explain by historical facts. There was triremes sailing all across the Mediterranean sea (and in some points this sea is deep) and in the Atlantic ocean, but, of course, there were losses. In the other and, there were also losses of caravels and galleons (mainly due to excess of charge) when they were crossing the deep Atlantic ocean. The charge could also be a factor that increase the chance of losing triremes, caravels or galleons in Freeciv.


My angle is a bit different. It is not about making the rules historical acurate. My motivation is about making the game playable and fun. Enableing triremes to sail on deep water may not have that big impact on continetal games. But in island games it do. With current rules, players may end up on isolated islands, unable to reach other players with trireme. This mean that this player can farm his island until other players get Navigation, giving this player a big defencive advantage. Basicly he dont need any defence at all. On the other hand, some players, especially one famous player, perfeceted the art of early trireme attacks, creating a lot of mayhemen and high blood preassure. With the current rules, if he (or I) get isolated on an island surrounded by deep ocean, he dont pose any threat at all in early gameplay.
I play mainly island games. The reason is that island games are generally smaller (fewer cities), faster (take some hours), more fair, and much easier to manage. AI's are no match at all. Good players have republic at turn 34, magmetism or gunpowder at turn 60. Island games too often become predictable. It is about farming, micromanage and doing science fast. Attack are not expected before turn 60. Building an army of archers and horsemen, go Xerxes and doing a trireme attack before turn 30, frustrating and messing up other players farming, is simply not an option anymore. And I never see a human build Lighthouse. Getting those triremes out on the ocean is a way to reintroduce some of the lost uncertanty in island games that did exist with old rules. And also to reintroduce a powerful strategy. And of course, the fun of hearing other players pulling out their hair in despair.
To remedy some of this, trireme is flagged belonging to unitclass_sea. So currently, the unitclass_trireme is simply ignored.

ipilowe
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Re: Bring early trireme attacks back from death

Postby ipilowe » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:02 pm

pekka wrote:My angle is a bit different. It is not about making the rules historical acurate. My motivation is about making the game playable and fun. Enableing triremes to sail on deep water may not have that big impact on continetal games. But in island games it do. With current rules, players may end up on isolated islands, unable to reach other players with trireme.


In my opinion, one of the biggest fun is that this game is accurate historical. But your idea is good. I hope they will allow triremes sailing in deep sea, but if they allow it they must make couple settings:
-how much chance trireme sink as percentage
-trireme deep sea sailing ON/OFF