Unload on land use one mp

What would you like to see in Freeciv? Do you have a good idea what should be improved or how?
Wahazar
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Re: Unload on land use one mp

Postby Wahazar » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:16 pm

Ignatus wrote:Why? If the target is to limit transported behaviour, Marines should be subject to it as any other units. When they attack from the board, they don't unload and these effects are not important for them.
So how they are supposed to attack, if all their mp are drained?
Augmented2 ruleset/modpack for freeciv2.6: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=91047

Ignatus
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Re: Unload on land use one mp

Postby Ignatus » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:17 am

Again: loading/unloading effects don't change anything for units that have neither loaded nor unloaded this turn, which is usual for Marines operations. Unloading effects totally don't care for them if they are attacking from aboard (if only they did not change their transport this turn); a particular type of operation "load marines on a transport in a city and flash attack coast in one turn" becomes weaker or impossible with load slowing effect, but this is what it is (you should keep your Marines in preparedness on board to be able to do so).

More concern is the proportional mp reduction - wouldn't it be overweakening to disallow a transported unit to perform an action at the final point if all transporter's mp are spent and the unit hasnn't yet do anything this turn? This allows one ship hop, but in fact you still can nearly do it if your unit retains at least a single fragment when the transporter is on its last mp. Of course, we can also disallow the ship to move if its cargo is out of mp; this, again, is logical (if we think of mps as of time spent on activities performed in the unit's speed rather than of fuel daily limit) but weird for players of present Freeciv.

nef
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Re: Unload on land use one mp

Postby nef » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:28 pm

Ignatus wrote:More concern is the proportional mp reduction - wouldn't it be overweakening to disallow a transported unit to perform an action at the final point if all transporter's mp are spent and the unit hasnn't yet do anything this turn? This allows one ship hop, but in fact you still can nearly do it if your unit retains at least a single fragment when the transporter is on its last mp.

Overweakening? Weaker yes, but my view is that if you have used up your time you have used it up. The difference of one move fragment for the transporter is not a huge price to pay (IMHO).

Of course, we can also disallow the ship to move if its cargo is out of mp; this, again, is logical (if we think of mps as of time spent on activities performed in the unit's speed rather than of fuel daily limit) but weird for players of present Freeciv.

Good point but this leads to no end of troubles. As pointed out by cazfi in one of the tickets the civ model has an essential inconsistency in chronology: that is in the game one can move (play) one unit AFTER another which is definitely not IRL. My view here is to simply remedy an exploit, and leave the fundamental paradigm as intact as possible.

I will point out (again) another simple modification - use a transport unit's "Not moved this turn" status to control some of the activities referred to in the various posts above. (See my first post on this page.) This would complement the MinMovesFrags predicate.

Finally, I would like to add the comment that creeping elegance should be carefully considered. Simplicity sometimes has its merits.

sveinung
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Re: Unload on land use one mp

Postby sveinung » Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:26 pm

Wahazar wrote:Currently unload without moving doesn't cost any movement points.
This is not an issue in case of only ocean transports, but if transporting units is capable to go on land (such trireme, train etc), you can push transport, unload, attack, load and retreat in one turn - it is much overpowered in my opinion.
I suggest to drain 1 mp during each unload by order, except this inside city.


Can now be done in the ruleset by combining the actions "Transport Alight" and "Transport Unload" with the effects Action_Success_Target_Move_Cost and Action_Success_Actor_Move_Cost. You can also charge movement from the transport.

sveinung
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Re: Unload on land use one mp

Postby sveinung » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:28 am

Ignatus wrote:There can be another transporting limitation, used AFAIK in CivII - to nullify mp on _load_ into a transport; it will actually help the ship-hopping problem if some movement points are required to board at the same tile.

Can now be done with the actions "Transport Board" and "Transport Embark".