Art, worth it?

Contribute, display and discuss art and tilesets for use in Freeciv here.
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XYZ
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Art, worth it?

Postby XYZ » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:42 am

I produced last summer a number of Cimpletoon, Amplio and Trident units (as well as some extras like a volcano and a ship wreck). I see all these new units as logic steps in the technological-historical development of units like different plane generations and categories for example. In the end I coudnt finish all the units I invisioned for a more unit rich game since I was lacking the time but I came very close. However, Im planning on filling the last spots in my templates in the next months but Im facing one big problem: What is it for if it will never get into the main version?
I dont expect the new units to be in the main version implemented in the default tech trees but as "shadow" units that could be activated for longturn games where the actual gaming happens as far as I know. Also, the Cimpletoon requirement is too high. I made a lot of cimpletoon units but learning how to create them took me a lot of time and relearning and creating would consume too much of my time for the remaining units. Moreover, since nobody has the skill to make the Cimpletoon all-directions templates why even bother? In my opinion art has been put to a hold for years because of this super requirement nobody has the skill anymore. I know freeciv moves in a glacial pace and if you dont do things yourself dont complain about it but Cimpletoon is the main road blocker for new art in my opinion and doing art without consequence is like screaming into the forest. I know its cheap to ask for implementation for something I want but without some vague assurance that this will lead to something Im quite hesitant to proceed finishing the art templates I started I while ago.

Maybe we could start small. I would also be happy if we could finish the animals row. I got a few months ago the reply from bard which of the Amplio animal rows whas the actual relevant one and can now complete that task. As far as I remember there are enough free Cimpletoon animals to even meet that requirement.


Explanation templates: A few empty spots have to be filled; not all units for trident exist in Amplio and vice versa; some units need reorientation and or a big make over (specially if the ylook to photorealisitic).

PS: Many thanks to Hans Lemurson and Wahazar who gave much input for the new units a while ago
Attachments
units-trident-7.png
Units30.png
Last edited by XYZ on Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Corbeau
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Re: Art, worth it?

Postby Corbeau » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:47 pm

I wouldn't want to put you down, but for a tileset with new units to be played, some ideas about what to do with those units have to exist. In short, ruleset usually goes before the tileset. Did you have in mind properties that the new units would have?

That said, I do have an idea lurking in my head to add "several generations" of some units, like planes and tanks, only need to carefully balance the techs and, possibly, other prerequisites that lead to them. When/If I do that, your art may come in very handy.

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XYZ
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Re: Art, worth it?

Postby XYZ » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:47 am

Did you have in mind properties that the new units would have?


Fair enough. In many cases I just added predecessors/successor units.

For example:

* = exists

Archer*->-Crossbower/Arbalest->WWI tank->WWII tank*->1./2./3 MBT generations
The tank destroyer is intended as cheap tank with high attack/little defence.

Others like the dromedarii are like the elephant a modification of the horseman/chariot that could focus on terrain instead (if desert would give a small movement penalty).
Horse archer is just an archer with more movement.

Special units like the battering ram or the siege tower have the special purpose to crack city walls/help units to overpass city walls.

Aircraft are split into air combat, ground attack and transport.


This is just a brief explanation what my reasoning behind was. I will publish in the next time an evolutionary tree that is more visual but this should give you an idea. Also, I wanted a tech tree were people would have the freedom of investing into tech that meets the requirement without the necessity to research for example all cavalry units but choose the ones that you like.

Anyhow, how the specifics look like is obviously the choice of the ruleset editor and he will have plenty with these new units.

Wahazar
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Re: Art, worth it?

Postby Wahazar » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:47 pm

Definitely worth of it (well, not counting this ATV photo :)
Many of these new pictures were very useful for my modpack, and these lacking, which I made by myself, are in poor quality/not fit into graphic style, if compared to yours ones.
Augmented2 ruleset/modpack for freeciv2.6: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=91047

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XYZ
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Re: Art, worth it?

Postby XYZ » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:54 am

This should explain what I had in mind with units. Ask if there are things unclear.
Attachments
Air units evolution.PNG
Cavalry evolution.PNG
Infantry evolution.PNG
Ship evolution.PNG

nef
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Re: Art, worth it?

Postby nef » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:15 pm

Corbeau wrote: In short, ruleset usually goes before the tileset. .
I believe this is the paradigm but I do not understand the philosophy behind it.

Rulesets are clear text that can be modified by anyone with a text editor. Even I have one of those and I use it from time to time for just this purpose. Tilesets png`s on the other hand are not so easily changed. And I fully appreciate the work done by others.

I do not understand the resistance to providing a large library in the distro for use by those of us who want to make our own ruleset with some units not in the official library. WHAT HARM IS THERE? I have asked this question before but the silent response was deafening - perhaps for one good reason - there is no reason; there is no harm - so why the resistance?

As for themes in providing units, I have no objection but equally valid would be just a ramble of units from which one may select an odd one or two. This is precisely what I wanted to do when I made my own ruleset in fc2.4.4. I had to made do with what I could scavenge. For example I used the migrant/refugee as an early/weak form of barb, so that I could introduce barbs at an early turn. The dev`s with their super diligent spring clean hygiene even removed a png I had been using (to provide a city turn by turn wakeup).

Why the resolute resistance? WHAT HARM IS THERE?

    WHAT HARM IS THERE?

nef
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Re: Art, worth it?

Postby nef » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:22 pm

XYZ wrote:
Explanation templates: A few empty spots have to be filled; not all units for trident exist in Amplio and vice versa; some units need reorientation and or a big make over (specially if the ylook to photorealisitic).

If you can finish these I will help with the .spec`s. The dev`s will then have no excuse.

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Re: Art, worth it?

Postby Wahazar » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:31 pm

nef wrote:I believe this is the paradigm but I do not understand the philosophy behind it.

Corbeau claim, that there should be need for certain graphics, before ruleset code is done.
But there is loop hole, because almost nobody*) is creating new rulesets which require graphics not included in distribution.

This should explain what I had in mind with units.

Good idea with these charts, I need to make similar ones (I arranged it in different way in my modpack)
Ships are debatable, too long initial chain, they should be split into trireme class, capable to ride river/shallow sea, and regular ships.
Last edited by Wahazar on Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Augmented2 ruleset/modpack for freeciv2.6: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=91047

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Corbeau
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Re: Art, worth it?

Postby Corbeau » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:53 pm

nef wrote:Why the resolute resistance? WHAT HARM IS THERE?


Dude, chill, there is no resistence :D I was simply replying to XYZ's disappointment at his work being seemingly useless. I pointed out the logical "order of needs". The "need for a graphic" comes after the "need for the unit/rule", and the latter is expressed in a ruleset.

That said, it's possible that I came on too strong and I would just like to express my gratitude to XYZ for doing this. Absolutely no harm and I'd hate it if XYZ felt disappointed because he is not being appreciated. Like I said, I'm developing a (line of) ruleset(s) that I hope will be used in Longturn games and, in a not-too-distant future, I think that his work may come in handy.

(But also, another thought: in some cases it is realistic to use same graphic for different, but similar units. Simply, when you click on a unit, it reveals all necessary information. This can emulate the real-life situation when you get reports of an armoured column advancing toward your city, but you actually have to use effort - in RL, send scouts; in game, click on the stack - to get more detailed information. I'm not saying different kinds of tank graphics won't be used, only that not every unit has to have a separate icon.)

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Re: Art, worth it?

Postby Ignatus » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:19 pm

Corbeau wrote:But also, another thought: in some cases it is realistic to use same graphic for different, but similar units. Simply, when you click on a unit, it reveals all necessary information. This can emulate the real-life situation when you get reports of an armoured column advancing toward your city, but you actually have to use effort

Sorry, but with this passage I can't agree, at least until something changes in related game mechanics. You can play as you like in single-player or in a close circle, but in web games everything that is sent in a packet should be comfortably represented to a normal player; otherwise, minor modification in the client to fix it (the server sends graphic tags once and then sends directly unit types, you can in theory overwrite the tags at ease) is an option that makes one who uses it to feel like a cheater and one who does not to feel like a lokh; Iwould not like to be either.