Multi-shot Diplomats/Explorers in civ2civ3 considered harmful

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chippo
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:48 am

Multi-shot Diplomats/Explorers in civ2civ3 considered harmful

Postby chippo » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:46 am

I'm aware of the discussion that led to Diplomats and Explorers getting longevity after creating embassies (someone thought that 30 production points was too much to just get an embassy). I initially agreed and have had a lot of fun in civ2civ3 with the starting Explorer and Diplomat. I've changed my mind. With the tech leakage in civ2civ3, embassies are WAY more powerful that those lame embassies in the default ruleset.

In the attached savegame (3.0.0-alpha3+ (41e42cbc47)) (you need to change the '.txt. back to '.sav.xz') I started with civ2civ3 defaults and changed:
- 100 tiles/player to 200
- 6 players to 15
I specifically kept pseudo-fractal height (when I normally select fully random) because that's what new players will get when they try out civ2civ3. Note that the point I'm about to make doesn't apply for any of the map generators other than pseudo-fractal.

The 2 changes I made only exacerbate the point I'm about to make; with only 100 tiles and 6 players the issue would have been absolute and completed ages ago.

In the savegame, it's turn 97, I've just acquired (or researched) trade, a city is getting ahead of tech in it's worklist and needs to pause with a Wonder to let research catch up. So which wonder? I consider Marco Polo's Embassy. Then I see that out of the 15 players, I'm only missing one embassy. And while my Explorer recently bought it, I still have my starting Diplomat to get that last embassy.

The combination of a free Diplomat at startup, Explorers getting embassy-creation, Diplomats and Explorers getting multi-shot and the choice of the pseudo-fractal map generator have conspired to make Marco Polo's Embassy obsolete (before Democracy ever could).

What to do?

1) Change the reward for Marco Polo's Embassy to something that you might want. Sticking with the Trade theme, maybe give the city that build it double (or triple? or quad-damage?) gold for it's 2 trade routes? Or maybe every trade-route in your empire gets one extra gold?
2) Change the default map generator to fully random height. Then you need caravels to get your multi-shot Diplomat and Explorer all over the world.
3) Remove the multi-shot ability for Diplomat and Explorer and just swallow the 30 productions points you have to spend per embassy. 30 pp is NOTHING compared to the gold you save via tech leakage over the life of the embassy. (this is my favoured solution)
4) Remove tech leakage so that embassies are less valuable, putting them in line with the now massively reduced cost (basically free) of getting them all. This would also need the reward to be changed to make it worth the effort of building it. (this is my least favoured solution, 'cos I love tech leakage and (especially) tech upkeep)
Attachments
freeciv-T0097-Y-0100-auto.txt
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chippo
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:48 am

Re: Multi-shot Diplomats/Explorers in civ2civ3 considered harmful

Postby chippo » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:13 am

Another solution:
5) Remove multi-shot embassy-creation from the Explorer. Take him back to single-embassy only, or maybe further back to no embassies at all. In the savegame, my Diplomat only did 4 of the 14 embassies. If the Explorer hadn't done 10 of them, there'd still be some point to an unchanged Marco Polo's Embassy. Although, I'll need to actually play a game with the default map size and players to check. It's possible that with the default 100/6/pseudo-fractal map and careful use of the Diplomat's double-move that one can still grab all 5 embassies by Turn 100 (without using the Explorer).

Wahazar
Elite
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:49 pm

Re: Multi-shot Diplomats/Explorers in civ2civ3 considered harmful

Postby Wahazar » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:26 pm

You are right, early diplo units multi-shots doesn't mix well with embassy tech leakage.

chippo
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:48 am

Re: Multi-shot Diplomats/Explorers in civ2civ3 considered harmful

Postby chippo » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:16 pm

chippo wrote:It's possible that with the default 100/6/pseudo-fractal map and careful use of the Diplomat's double-move that one can still grab all 5 embassies by Turn 100 (without using the Explorer).


Turns out that it's trivial. I started a default defaults civ2civ3 game, changing nothing except turning the AIs to Hard. I didn't collect any embassies with my Explorer or via diplomacy, only with the free Diplomat establish-embassy orders. Attached is a savegame on Turn 50, where I collect my 5th and final embassy (remember I guessed 100 turns). What's more interesting is that the AIs all have 4 out of the 5 embassies, although, admittedly, they also used their Explorers. But, no one even has Currency yet, let alone Trade. If we don't change anything, and someone plays civ2civ3 with the defaults, then the AIs will each have all embassies before Trade is researched.

So, Solution 5) proposed above, is a non-starter.
Attachments
marco-polo.txt
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