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Re: Corbeau's ruleset (2.5) - v1.0 released

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:07 pm
by Corbeau
In this ruleset I have around 30 requirements (some are buildings, some are city minimum size) that each add 1 to radius sqrt(). I think that combining stuff so that one or two requirements don't take this beyond a certain X would be too much.

Re: Corbeau's ruleset (2.5) - v1.0 released

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:50 pm
by Wahazar
Corbeau wrote:Mass Transit makes sense. It should enable people to move further from the centre of the town. Or increase efficiency / decrease waste (as in "production waste", because people need less time to travel and can use more time to work) once it's built.
However, I don't see why Recyc should do that. There is no way it really limits city growth in reality.

We are talking about city radius, not city size. And about playability, thus preventing high pollution, which harm everyone because one player is a D... Scrump, is recommended.
By the way, you have building such barracks, how are they supposed to increase city radius?
In my opinion, all these "MORE CITY SIZE - IMPROVEMENTS" are overpowered and not intuitive for player, city radius growth together with population is enough.
The only effect which should exist for additional radius related to improvement is effect_city_radius_size_courthouse - it is called jurisdiction :)
At least it make sense to build courthouse in Capital City even in early stage of the game.
Another extra effect should be for Superhighways - usually nobody making it because it is not working on farmland, but for additional radius growth, it make sense to make such improvement.

Implementation on city radius limits depend on building are, I suppose, easy - if you want to limit radius above 8 without Mass Transit, just add:

Code: Select all

[effect_city_radius_size_9]
type    = "City_Radius_Sq"
value   = 1
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "MinSize", "9", "City"
      "Building", "Mass Transit", "City"      ;this and others below
    }
 

and same for all effects below.
In case of recyc, add it for 17 and all below:

Code: Select all

[effect_city_radius_size_17]
type    = "City_Radius_Sq"
value   = 1
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "MinSize", "17", "City"
      "Building", "Mass Transit", "City"      ;this is from 9 and higher
      "Building", "Recycling Center", "City"  ;this and others below
    }

Re: Corbeau's ruleset (2.5) - v1.0 released

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:09 pm
by Corbeau
Barracks increase the overall security of the area and allow workers to work on areas further away from the city.

Religious buildings make them more motivated to travel more.

Tech buildings make them more more able to use various means of transport.

Financial buildings allow more resources for better means of transportation.

Bigger size means houses are further away from the centre. Suburbs etc.

The examples you wrote only make radius +1 in case all those conditions are met, but don't prevent the city to expand more, because there are other effects that make it expand. "MinSize", "9", "City" is a condition, not a directive. If it is met, something happens (+1 radius). But there are many other +1s that go around this one.

Re: Corbeau's ruleset (2.5) - v1.0 released

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:58 pm
by Wahazar
OK, let say these improvement bonuses make sense (however barrack should be removed, it can be annoying, decreasing city radius because gunpowder was invented).
But overall radius is much to high. Either remove some building, or limit effects related to growth (no more than 16). Even radius currently used (in LT) is overpowered.

Re: Corbeau's ruleset (2.5) - v1.0 released

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:03 pm
by wieder
LT40 and the upcoming LT46 (based on LT40) had a different take on city radius with one city having the possibility of max radius for the early game and all of the cities by around mid game. There one of the ideas with the massive city working areas was not to let the players to use all the tiles but make them to decide how to place the cities with or without overlapping tiles.

To me it feels like LT42 has an interesting combination of massive working areas, citymindist 1, no unhappy limits and for maybe most importantly to make this combo work, the spontaneous migration. Something else might happen but if it gets to that, we should see some really interesting stuff with really difficult gameplay for those who look for perfection. Really really hard :D

Re: Corbeau's ruleset (2.5) - v1.0 released

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:33 am
by Corbeau
Yeah. I'm pretty sure that nice and anal-retentive urban planning will be impossible :D Much more fluidity and uncertainty.

Well, a city placement genius may be able to take all factors into account, but then again, that's what will make a difference between a great player and those who are less great ;)

And good point about losing radius with loss of barracks. I'm thinking, fix it by giving another +1 for Gunpowder and whatever is the requirement for Barracks III?

And, for the record, I'm still looking for good tech upkeep numbers. Nobody replied about maximum bulbs-per-turn ever seen in LT. If it's, say, 5000, then I'd make the Divider 1000, which, at Fusion Power and 50 cities, will make tech upkeep equal to bulb gain. More cities and you go into negative. Less cities, and you can advance.

OR - but maybe it's too late to test that - change the original tech cost system. I'll have to think about that in the future.

Re: Corbeau's ruleset (2.5) - v1.0 released

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:04 am
by Wahazar
Barracks (in game) are for making better units, not required for stationing, thus argument that they increase city safety is not valid.
And unstable effects such city radius depend on knowledge or obsolete buildings should be avoided.
Besides this, huge city radius would make exponential city size spread, due to excessive food surplus.
You need to limit it, otherwise world will be boiled.
One method is to add req for buildings such Mass Transit to city radius growth beyond given threshold.
Second method is to limit city size, as it is already done for aqueduct or sewer. Recycle center is a good candidate, aren't there environmental rules and regulations which require such facilities for huge cities?
I propose, that city with sewer system can grow up to 32:

Code: Select all

; Max city size 8 + 8 + 16 = 32
[effect_sanitation]
type    = "Size_Adj"
value   = 16
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Building", "Sewer System", "City"
    }


whereas with sewer system, growth is unlimited:

Code: Select all

[effect_recyc_unlimit_1]
type    = "Size_Unlimit"
value   = 1
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Building", "Recycling Center", "City"
      "Building", "Sewer System", "City"
      "Building", "Aqueduct", "City"
    }
 ; + 2 others for Aq. Lake and River

Re: Corbeau's ruleset (2.5) - v1.0 released

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:49 pm
by wieder
50 cities for the upkeep alone? It's going to be a time consuming end game if it gets that far with the techs. The upkeep is very hard to understand from multiplayer balancing point of view. Yes, it's kind of nice to pay the price for getting free stuff by stealing but it also slows down the game and that could be done by changing the tech costs. It may also lead to a situation where stealing techs is the "only" way to get them even with the capacity to do researching. On the other hand... I have absolutely no certainty how tech leakage will change the upkeep. Will it be gone or lower once the techs become cheaper?

My guess is that tech upkeep will slow down the top players but it will also virtually stop the weak players from advancing.

There is a hand edited set of techs costs in LT45. Let's see how that goes with multiplayer and tech leakage. And with tech trading between the team members.

Re: Corbeau's ruleset (2.5) - v1.0 released

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:47 pm
by Corbeau
wieder wrote:50 cities for the upkeep alone?

Actually, the other way round. Upkeep depends on number of cities. If you have less cities, you pay less upkeep.

As for "understanding it from multiplayer balancing point of view", here is a try: if set to depend on number of cities (like it is now), it reduces the technological gap between large empires (like USA) with small ones (like Singapore) regarding science.

And good question about tech leakage. My guess is that it depends on the original cost of the techs and not on leaked cost, but we'll see. If it's the latter, it will simply decrease the leakage effect and bring LT42 closer to more classic LT games.

Re: Corbeau's ruleset (2.5) - v1.0 released

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:21 am
by Wahazar
Corbeau wrote:Actually, the other way round. Upkeep depends on number of cities.

It is very bad idea, in my opinion. You can and up with deadlock: many cities, but none can grow above 16 due to high science upkeep.
Science upkeep should depend on population, not city count (logically, more people, higher cost of education). Unfortunately there is no such option.