Default Tech-Tree critical logic fails

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GriffonSpade
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Default Tech-Tree critical logic fails

Postby GriffonSpade » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:03 pm

Some bizarre tech tree anomalies I've noticed (and OC nature compels me to point out)

Battleship(Automobile) does not require Machine Tools(Artillery). Is it still using old 1600s era cannons?

Destroyer(Electricity) is described as an improved Ironclad, but does not require Steam Engine(Ironclad). (Does it still use sails? It requires neither Steam Engine nor Combustion (Internal Combustion Engine)! How is it generating electricity?)

Ironclads(Steam Engine) are iron plated ships with cannons, but does not require metallurgy(which allows cannons), or even gunpowder, or even iron working.

Frigates(Magnetism) are improved ships over caravels...but without gunpowder, how are they stronger?

Armor(Mobile Warfare) assumably have much improved cannons, but do not require Machine Tools(Artillery).

Freight(The Corporation), an automobile, does not require Automobile. (and is clearly not a freight train, as it is not limited to railroads)

Power Plant (Refining) does not require electricity...what kind of power is it generating?

...and what exactly IS Invention?

Edit Tangent: Another thought comes to mind, is Coastal Defense supposed to be fortified Sea Wall, or a Fortified Sea Wall with built in cannons?
And Mightn't it be better to have these buildings improve only certain units? It doesn't make much sense to me for Coastal Defense to improve Warriors or Phalanx by a flat percent...it would make rather more sense for them to only boost certain units, against certain other units. For example a Cannon might receive a massive defense bonus against Ironclads and below, Armor and Artillery might receive a bonus against destroyers and below, and Howitzers receive a bonus against Battleships and below. SAM Battery on the other hand just seems odd. This building seems like it should be more akin to a unit in itself. Something like an AEGIS detection grid would make more sense, which would then boost anti-aircraft capable units.
Last edited by GriffonSpade on Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:49 am, edited 5 times in total.

louis94
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Re: Default Tech-Tree critical logic fails

Postby louis94 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:01 am

Hello,

I do mostly agree with you. But nuclear power plants do not need Refrigeration tech at all.

Nuclear Power does not require Refrigeration, how does it not melt down?

Refrigeration is about active cooling, which is what refrigerators use. You need a lot of energy to do active cooling, but you can get a temperature lower than the ambient temperature.
Power plants, on the other hands, use passive cooling. In passive cooling, the energy is taken away by some fluid - generally water. In power plants, that energy is then reused to produce electricity. Steam engines already worked that way: water was boiled, and the steam was used to move something.
Nuclear power plants use yet another way to remain in control of the reaction: control bars. These are lead bars that, when inside the reactor, prevent the chain reaction to propagate. As there is less chain reaction, there is less emitted power, and the core does not melt down.

Louis

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GriffonSpade
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Re: Default Tech-Tree critical logic fails

Postby GriffonSpade » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:15 pm

louis94 wrote:Hello,

I do mostly agree with you. But nuclear power plants do not need Refrigeration tech at all.

Nuclear Power does not require Refrigeration, how does it not melt down?

Refrigeration is about active cooling, which is what refrigerators use. You need a lot of energy to do active cooling, but you can get a temperature lower than the ambient temperature.
Power plants, on the other hands, use passive cooling. In passive cooling, the energy is taken away by some fluid - generally water. In power plants, that energy is then reused to produce electricity. Steam engines already worked that way: water was boiled, and the steam was used to move something.
Nuclear power plants use yet another way to remain in control of the reaction: control bars. These are lead bars that, when inside the reactor, prevent the chain reaction to propagate. As there is less chain reaction, there is less emitted power, and the core does not melt down.

Louis


Hmm, so the control bars are used as the main meltdown prevention rather than any kind of coolant? (Other than water anyway.) I guess ultimately just using a higher volume of water makes a lot more sense than having inefficient coolant systems that reduce power output instead.

Although honestly, there isn't a particularly large difference between refrigeration and a steam engine. Other than the obvious 'powering an engine' part anyway. Active cooling just uses substances that boil at a lower temperature and an active compressor, while steam engines burn fuel to passively compress steam.

Ultimately seems like the requirements for refrigeration should be 'Chemistry'(for the coolant) and 'Steam Engine' :lol:.
Edit: I guess I should actually be looking into superconductors requiring refrigeration.

louis94
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Re: Default Tech-Tree critical logic fails

Postby louis94 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:15 pm

Hmm, so the control bars are used as the main meltdown prevention rather than any kind of coolant? (Other than water anyway.) I guess ultimately just using a higher volume of water makes a lot more sense than having inefficient coolant systems that reduce power output instead.

With control bars, you can actually control the total power emitted by the nuclear fission process. More lead in the core mean less power, and less lead mean more power. Since control bars can be moved into/out of the core, they can be used to control its temperature.

There is also Plastics, which should be required by a lot of modern techs, Electronics being the most reasonable. But what would Plastics require then ? Refining, but the other ?
And you can't build a radio without electronics, but you can still build bombers without knowing about Radios.

Louis

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GriffonSpade
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Re: Default Tech-Tree critical logic fails

Postby GriffonSpade » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:53 am

Yeah, part of that is the lack of 'jet flight' technology and corresponding units. Really, the 'flight' tech should give biplanes, then 'advanced flight' should be WW2 era stuff.
Ultimately I think the 'radio' is just required for Airports. (Not a true requirement per se, but a vast improvement that is somewhat senseless to not include)
As for plastics, it creates the fuel/engine components for the space ship...which seems to have absolutely nothing to do with plastic?

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Re: Default Tech-Tree critical logic fails

Postby NotAnyoneSpecial » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:15 am

I think one really sorely lacking part of the tech tree is the intermediate "jet fighter" unit that usually would be slotted into rockery a la civ 3. As Fighters are very underpowered until the stealth era, 4 attack @ 2 firepower and 20 hp, means they can't really stand up to even cruisers - maybe destroyers, but destroyers are woefully underpowered as a modern end game unit (lacking the crucial 2 FP, most modern ships have).

Battleships are nigh invincible unless fighters and bombers are suicided against one, so the carrier beats battleship dynamic kinda fails xD. Might as well use a submarine with 4 cruise missiles on board to rule the seas xD

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Re: Default Tech-Tree critical logic fails

Postby Lachu » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:16 pm

Real ods are in civilization 5. I can build cavalierly without technology horseback ridding.