Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:09:44 any luck with your neighbours here? Any exchange, friendly or otherwise? Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:10:01 Well, I could ask you the same, right? Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:10:11 Talking about neighbors gives away my geography. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:10:15 If you ask, I will answer 😉 Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:10:26 Let's trade: you tell me about one neighbor, I'll tell you about another. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:10:35 Well, I'd say you're to my SE, or roughly in that direction. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:11:04 I don't really believe that is much of a secret. I'm located at around (7,133) Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:11:45 I mean, if you have to ask where I am, you're not an immediate threat 😉 Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:12:02 Yeah, I got a general fix on your location a while ago. I think between you and I are indeed a few players. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:12:22 In environments like this, friends come from afar. it's the neighbours who are usually a problem 😉 Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:12:25 However, judging by the unit I ran into, you're further south than expected. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:12:29 Hahaha true, true. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:13:00 Korosno is your city, right? Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:13:01 Well, I'd say you ran into my Explorer. Right? Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:13:13 Yes. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:13:14 Yep. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:13:42 The far south city and I'm in danger of being cut off from further expansion into empty territory. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:13:51 .... to the south Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:13:57 So, how's you? Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:14:36 I'm indeed to your SE, and I've got my eyes on a stretch of territory that I think you've got your eyes on, as well. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:15:05 I'm always for making deals. What I don't like are unilateral non-linear actions. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:15:14 Same here. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:15:32 I mean, if I'm at 2, you're at 16, let's meet at 9, not at 4. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:15:45 Haha Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:15:50 One moment please... Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:16:11 even 8 or 10 are fine if the circumstances demand, but leave my neck alone. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:16:51 (Trying to get a screencap to work properly) Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:16:52(edited) ...and by now I guess you're beginning to realise my problem with neighbour(s) 😉 Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:19:41 Hahaha indeed. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:19:50 If you're trying to send a map, don't bother, really. Sooner or later we'll exchange maps the normal way. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:20:33 Well, I can't get it to work anyway. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:21:05 So, what I'm really interested about is tech exchange. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:21:12 As am I. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:21:50(edited) It seems there is a group who has established a science machine that spews out bulbs, but so far I'm not in contact with someone willing to share outside of the group. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:22:54 This is why I'm curious about your neighbours and your relations with them. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:26:55 (While I'm away: the question for me is -- which tech do you have access to?) Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:27:03 Not too much. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:27:19 But pooling research is always a mutual benefit. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:27:34 You do A, I do B and then we exchange. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:28:20 And if you have C and I don't, it's also in your interest to give it to me so that I don't waste time so that I can do D and give it to you in exchange for E. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:28:55 The other direction applies, too. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:29:15 Noob though I am, I am aware of the principles of tech sharing. 😃 Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:29:44 Well, some people, non-noobs as they are, don't really get the principles of sharing in general. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:30:05 I won't mention names. Yet. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:30:34 Haha Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:31:27 To cut the long story short, currently I have Alphabet, Bronze, Pottery and Writing. Working on CerBurial Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:32:31 My immediate neighbour, however, has all that AND five more techs, including Republic. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:33:02 And I got Diplomats less than a week ago. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:33:15 Here's my problem: Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:33:33 I know that you're smarter than me. You've been playing the game for far longer. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:33:45 Erm... Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:33:59 I'm in a very sensitive spot. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:34:15 If I give away details about my neighbors, I don't know what you know, and especially who you know. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:34:23 So, what I can tell you is this: Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:34:34 I have a tech development agreement with someone, and I'm focused on war. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:34:44 I've got the wheel, soon catapults. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:35:02 I'm willing to trade with you, for absolutely sure. But I need to be circumspect with who I know and what I know. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:35:11 By the way, that circumspection extends to you, as well. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:35:47 Ok. For starters, I don't do the knife-in-back thing. It's bad for reputation and if one plans to continue playing, that thing sticks and you find yourself impossible to make deals in future games. If we agree on Peace Eternal, that's it. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:36:36 Secondly, the "circumspection" thing, if I got it right, concerns secrecy, and once you give a tech to someone, everyone who has an embassy with taht soeone will get a notification. So things like that don't remain a secret for long. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:36:51 I know that. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:37:01 But I also know that I'm in between old players with a lot of history together. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:37:13 Ok, now I kow who your neighbour is 😄 Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:37:22 And I also know yours. 😃 Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:37:36 Well, he is between you and me, it was obvious 😃 Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:38:04 Anyway, I'm all for putting cards on the table because Truth Is My Friend 😉 Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:38:44 And, as others will confirm (probably) I don't really start wars. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:39:22 Again, you're certainly much better at playing than I am. I have a feeling you're much further south than I am north -- you're expanding rapidly, efficiently. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:39:30 So, anyway, I'm open for a deal, if you're willing to make one. However, not knowing the terms of your deals with others (although I can make a fair guess), I'd like you to propose a deal and see where it gets us. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:39:43 Given your skills, I don't think you yourself need to start wars to win wars. See what I mean? Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:39:52 I'm also open for a deal, but I need to think on the terms. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:39:53 I wouldn't call this expansion rapid and efficient. Like I said, I'm almost blocked. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:40:05 But if I am that strong, then you want me as an ally, no? Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:40:36(edited) And, again, it's more about who you know than how strong you are. Unfortunately. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:40:43 But allies always bring strings. So, I need to think on it. By when do you need a solid proposal from me? (I'm kind of booked this weekend in terms of time, by the way.) Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:41:13 Oh, we won't get an embassy before next week so it can wait. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:41:41 Cool. I'll try to have a solid proposal to you on either Monday or Tuesday. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:41:52 Lovely. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:42:10 Will you be online through the weekend or is your nation getting idle? Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:42:17 I'll be online. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:43:40 And, for the record, I think whoever told you that "I am a very good player" was puling strings. I get some things done very well, but they come at a cost of other things. There are far better players here than me. I was a part of an initial four-way alliance in Game 2 and there I was 3rd strongest. Everything else came afterwards. Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:44:52 In this case, I wasn't told that you were a very good player. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:45:05(edited) Why do you think I am then? Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:45:32 If you played solo for years, than I think we got the same "training". Schwartz20. 10. 2017., 10:45:52 Call it a journalistic intuition. Hahaha "training" as in autism? 😋 Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:46:01 And I can't say that those 5-10 Longturn games really enriched me experience-wise. Corbeau20. 10. 2017., 10:46:27 ...especially since most of them never ended for one reason or another. Schwartz24. 10. 2017., 11:01:31 And as promised, a proposal: Schwartz24. 10. 2017., 11:07:26 We should demarcate territory. You need space, and I need the city Urik (I'm already attacking it). So, I propose that you can take everything in that area other than Urik. Schwartz24. 10. 2017., 11:08:47 And regarding movement of units, especially diplomats, I propose that we ask each other ahead of time before sending them into each others' empires or claims. Schwartz24. 10. 2017., 11:11:43 So, if you agree, in this particular instance I would respectfully ask you to withdraw your diplomat from the area of Urik, or if it's too dangerous for him to move (as there is a war going on near us), keep him in his current position until it's safe for him to leave. Corbeau24. 10. 2017., 12:11:16 Hey, I wasn't even aware there was a city called Urik 😉 My diplomat is just snooping around, followed by an explorer. I'm not subverting cities, if that was your concern, not enough funds for that. Corbeau24. 10. 2017., 12:11:54 I'll move away from the black border and snoop around some more and then, if that's all right with you, I'll send that diplomat your way to establish embassy. Corbeau24. 10. 2017., 12:13:11 What did you mean by "there is a war going on near us"? Two active nations against each other or you were referring to you attacking Urik? Corbeau24. 10. 2017., 12:17:13 Back to game: any thoughts about tech exchange? Obviously, I have nothing to give at the moment and, maybe, just maybe, if you ask Borg Queen openly about giving me tech, she may also openly say "no". Schwartz24. 10. 2017., 14:01:41(edited) Haha yeah, I've also got a funding crunch. My advice would be for your diplomat to head eastward; westward is that conflict which I mentioned, between two active players. If you do brave westward, you'll find a lot of ruins. I think eastward there are many idlers, by the way. I noticed that of the 297 official players, 2/3 are on idle and a few nations have even changed. Idlers are not as ideal as empty territory, but it's a conqueror's paradise out there. As for the "Borg Queen", I've got a guess of who you mean. I'm trying to stay out of the politics between the old players for as long as possible and be on mutually beneficial trading terms with as many as possible. So, let's keep each other in the loop about tech. 👍 Corbeau24. 10. 2017., 14:08:36 Ok, who is at war? Corbeau24. 10. 2017., 14:10:09 Erm... Ok, this didn't come out the right way... Corbeau24. 10. 2017., 14:35:21 Anyway, I just had a better look. So, Swiftfoottim is at war with someone. I need the information who he is at war with because it may happen that I'm actually finishing him off and I'd like to know who I am about to encounter. Corbeau24. 10. 2017., 14:35:39 ...and squabble about the leftovers. Corbeau24. 10. 2017., 14:36:11 If it's you, then fine, you're talkative and we can reach any kind of agreement. But if it's somoene else, I'd like to be prepared. Corbeau25. 10. 2017., 09:33:11(edited) I just met Dramon. Sent a "friend request", see what happens. Corbeau25. 10. 2017., 09:33:30 Any contact with him? Schwartz26. 10. 2017., 11:47:24 You can send your diplomat to Turtledove, which is closest to the unit. Yes, I'm in contact with Dramon. I'm also in contact with the Borg Queen, it's really tough dealing with her. Schwartz26. 10. 2017., 11:47:26(edited) PS -- I forgot to mention before that I'm happy to accept the embassy but only if I receive an embassy in return. Corbeau26. 10. 2017., 16:26:45 About the embassy, technically, all is well except that a convention in some circles goes that whoever is receiving an embassy gets something in return because he didn't expend the resources needed for a diplomat. However, right this moment, I'm in DIRE need of technologies because Darkdusk has been dead quiet for roughly a week and here it is never a good sign. Corbeau26. 10. 2017., 16:27:25 And he is getting his tech portfolio pumped from the east, while I am basically solo for now. Corbeau26. 10. 2017., 16:27:59 If needed, I will elaborate later why it is good that you give me technology, in a bit of a hurry right now. Corbeau26. 10. 2017., 16:28:21 And yes, it extends the "it is a good thing to share" to a bit more. Corbeau26. 10. 2017., 16:32:18 Also, where exactly is Turtledove? (and feel free to give directions about best terrain so that I can go around hills and mountains if there are any, I'm moving completely blind) Schwartz27. 10. 2017., 11:11:41 To be honest, I don't think giving tech for a unilateral embassy is a fair trade. If you want tech from me -- and I'm definitely open to that, so I'm not being coy -- I would need at least an embassy in return. I would ask for a gold payment as well, but I think information would be worth its weight in gold. 👍 Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 11:12:27 Well, the problem is that at the moment I have very little gold and very probably no techs to exchange in return. Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 11:13:02 And I'm not sure we understood each other. I did not mean "give me tech and I won't give you embassy". Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 11:13:10 As for information, very, very gladly. Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 11:13:38 And I think I never gave you the argumentation why would it be good to give me tech, generally. So here it goes. Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 11:15:20 Firstly, I am not your immediate neighbour yet, and even if I become one, there will be very small line of contact. It is generally worth supplying your neighbours' neighbours with stuff because it makes your direct neighbours more on the edge and less paying attention to you, and more to their other side. I'm not presuming hostilities, simply general attention and inclination toward hostile behaviour. Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 11:16:50 Secondly, and more specific, there is a possibility of a conflict between Darkdusk and me and if it happens, I will be overrun (due to him having tech and me not) and then you'll end up with a largish empire on your borders. You could, of course, try to make peace with him, but you know what they say about when someone tastes blood. Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 11:17:51 You don't have to take my word for granted, but DD doesn't seem to be block solid stable and apparently is prone to getting ideas. If he wasn't, we'd be at good relations now any I wouldn't be talking to you about all this. Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 11:20:04 Thirdly, I understand you have an agreement with Dramon and I am on the verge of making one with him, too, but he doesn't have a spotless record due to past behaviour. The jury is out on this one and there are conflicting stories, but he was said to have broken a treaty once because it suited him at a given moment. Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 11:23:59 As for me, feel free to ask around about my trustworthiness and my general style of play. I'm not sure about your current neighbours and Lexxie tends to answer in riddles, but I am well known in Longturn.org community but I have a feeling none of them are here. Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 11:25:24 Maybe Riyria and Nostradamus, if you are willing to ask such information from perfect strangers. They were my neighbours in Game 2. Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 11:26:54 So, basically, I'm offering my friendship and alliance - public or secret, your choice and no real difference to me - throughout the game, for a steady supply of tech that you receive from others and, probably, the ones you discover yourself. Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 11:27:34 And when I say "alliance", I don't mean "go to war if someone attacks me", although I won't mind if you do, just that it's not the level of engagement I expect. Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 11:39:02 And, BTW, where exactly is your city? Schwartz27. 10. 2017., 17:40:59 Hey sorry, I'm now in between countries, headingso I need to be terse. I appreciate everything you're saying, and what I'm saying is: I'm happy to have a productive relationship with you, call it a friendship, even an alliance, even a public alliance, but again, I will not accept you establishing an embassy without at least giving an embassy in return. That's what I meant by information being worth its wait in gold -- otherwise, I would literally ask you to pay me gold to establish an embassy at my city Turtledove (just a tile or two away from your Diplomat). If you want tech from me, that's also cool, just make me an offer. And if you have other ideas for how I can help you out, just throw them at me. Schwartz27. 10. 2017., 17:44:48 The offer could be like to share your map with me, for example (as that cannot be withdrawn, like an embassy). Just something that is equatable to an embassy. Schwartz27. 10. 2017., 17:53:26 To demonstrate my good intentions: your diplomat is perilously close to Lexxie's territory, and she'll kill you on sight if you don't request permission to enter. If I were you, keep him right where he is until you and I can sort out an agreement. He's close to Turtledove and he's got mountains to which he can run if one of Lexxie's patrols come around. Schwartz27. 10. 2017., 17:55:56 Gotta go now, I'll read your reply the next time I'm online (probably from Istanbul!) Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 17:56:23 Ok, we keep missing each other's point. In which DIRECTION is Turtledove? Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 17:58:22 As for embassy, I'm not sure you caught all the nuances of having one. Firstly, you can't withdraw it. Once an embassy is established, it's forever (even if the city where it was established is destroyed or conquered). Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 17:59:02 Secondly, you can't really prevent creating an embassy except intercepting a diplomat and destroying it before it reaches your city. Just so that this is clear. Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 18:00:39 That said, like I mentioned before, the standard convention is that the person who made a diplomat receives something in return for the resources he used for creating the diplomat. Either that, or the creation of embassy was an act of hostility and is a reason for war. Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 18:02:33 However, all that said, here is my offer: you can have my map, also vision as long as I know with whom you are sharing vision and the agreement that I can withdraw it if it goes too far. Also, your word that this will not be used against me by you or, to your knowledge, by anyone you transfer information to, in any form. Corbeau27. 10. 2017., 18:03:37 As for technologies, I desperately need them and for them am willing to promise that I will give you all technologies I research myself and also those that I receive from others and am allowed to transfer to you. Schwartz31. 10. 2017., 15:44:00 So, here's the score. Schwartz31. 10. 2017., 15:51:30 1. Although I clearly fancy a wild conspiracy theory or two, as you already saw from our conversation earlier, I do not fancy wild lectures. Most of what you said has no substance, to put it frankly. 2. You forced your diplomat onto me, it's as simple as that. Then your offer is also mostly just a charade. I want an embassy back from you right now, nothing else. I'm sure as hell not giving you my world map without some extremely important reason for doing so. 3. The offer of Map Mapping seems fishy to me. Thanks, but no thanks. Corbeau31. 10. 2017., 18:15:01 1. I have no clue what you are talking about. 2. Forced? We talked about it for a week. If at any point you said "no, don't send a diplomat", I would have sent him to Dramon. You didn't. I actually talked to Dramon and decided to send the diplomat to you. I asked you about embassy. You gave me a city name. I sent a diplomat and now you say you don't want any deal. So, basically, you fucked me up for one diplomat. 3. You need help. I'm looking at the sentence "offer of Map Mapping seems fishy to me" from all directions, but I can't make any sense of it. And, lastly, I will gladly give you embassy. That is the right thing to do anyway. However, that diplomat cost me 30 shields, which can be converted to 60 gold. So I would like half of that back. I believe everyone you ask will confirm it is a fair deal. Or you can spend 30 shields yourself, build a diplomat and send it my way. I promise not to destroy it. I will even give you directions. Why? Because it's the fair thing to do. And if you actually come to your senses, do send me a note. I don't hold high hopes because your last message seems like deranged rambling, but you never know. Corbeau31. 10. 2017., 18:25:49 The only good thing about this is that I could make a screenshot of this conversation to show other people when they don't believe me if I told then what is going on.